Another take from a slightly different view of the stuff I have been talking about
In wandering about the Net looking for something else I ran into Robert W. Fuller, Patient Revolution: Human Rights Past and Future which is an hour long video about his self named "Dignitarian" ideology. His elite background shows, and seems to me to be a major difference I have with him. But by talking from the position of the management, and his academic credentials he does provide a place and perspective that can allow managers to create a more humane and profitable system.
Of particular interest to me is the way he, as I have, actively differentiates what he is talking about from the Communist/Socialist unnecessary monopolies that are not different from the same thing that is "privately" held. He talks about managers treating others with dignity because it is ultimately in the manager's self interest, while my focus is to have a method to make sure that he does so, because few people can see their real self interest.
I suppose that the conservative here can twist what he is saying and bring on the same old straw dogs, but I am very encouraged by his take on things as it is one more brick in the edifice of actual liberal thought that highlights the honorable, civilization building, real values, from the predatory, civilization killing, deeply dishonest ideology that trys to force a separate reality because it cannot stand the light of day as an idea discussion.
I understand that those conservatives here believe that they have the honorable position and believe the liberal position dishonorable. But I would be interested in how they would defend against the deep point this man makes, without any red herrings and side issues.
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Comments :
it almost sounds like
in order for me to comment on this intelligently I would have to watch that video. I might offer my opinion on this even without watching it because I can imagine what he talks about but maybe I'll watch it later.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Duh
An opinion without watching, would not have much to do with intelligence.
I do not propose watching standard and rehashed stuff, only that which has a new and unexpected POV or greater detail not available elsewhere.
I believe that there is a general set of honorable guidelines that any honorable person can agree to, and from that a better understanding can arise.
Also those with dishonorable intentions will avoid finding such agreement and thus out themselves.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
there are also those
who think that any compromise/agreement is tantamount to capitulation to the people with dishonorable intentions, who are looking to get their foot in the door to be able to implement an anti-capitalist agenda.
So it can go many different ways. I am not absolutist on the issue but definitely am more sympathetic to the above view.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
And there in lies the problem
To compete in the realm of ideas you have to put that idea in the fight.
If it has validity, it will win.
If it cannot compete it does not deserve to win.
If you are too fearful to compete then it is not even an idea that you can believe in.
Reality does not have an agenda, but it does have a bias against those who would hide from it.
I think I have an idea that IMHO is superior to standard left or right models, and because of that I would dearly love to put it in a worthy fight.
(edited too get the right two) :)
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
I know you don't like
Kieth Olbermann but he is such a superior wordsmith to myself, his response to Newt calling for the elimination of free speech, at a celebration of free speech, in a state with the motto "live free or die" was something they should teach in school like the Gettysburg address.
"Like an arsonist speaking at a fireman's memorial"
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
Another very interesting take
I have discovered long ago that every dishonorable cult, sect, or whatever has a central problem. Having used false logic to ensnare their prey, they must build a wall to keep reality from un-ensnaring them. Some variation of your quote, often quite elaborate, is a common central mechanism.
I wandering in search of other things I came across this article in referencing JWs, and was struck at the similarity inherent in your quote.
Not being JW, it is easier to see the fallacy in their thinking,
But at the same time it highlights one's own thinking, when such thinking is spookily similar.
This is why I have chosen to start from a Libertarian perspective, dealing only with a single, minor (if gaping) flaw in their logic, because it is that flaw upon which their entire house of cards is built.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
Some more very interesting research on that mindset
There is actually an identified pathology to it called Right Wing Authoritarian pathology. Very common on the political right, very rare on the political left, and those on the left very isolated by all, being the likes of Farrakhan, communists, Weathermen, etc.
There is a quick read here and a much longer read from the original source here. It was this research that John Dean was talking about in his book "Conservatives without Conscience" as well.
A Quick And Dirty Guide To Right Wing Authoritarianism (RWA)
Table 1: Hostility & Fear Toward Outgroups
RWA’s are more likely to:
* Weaken constitutional guarantees of liberty, such as the Bill of Rights.
* Punish severely ‘common’ criminals in a role-playing situation.
* Admit they get personal pleasure from punishing such people.
* But go easy on authorities who commit crimes and people who attack minorities.
* Be prejudiced against many racial, ethnic, nationalistic, and linguistic minorities.
* Be hostile toward homosexuals.
* Support ‘gay-bashing.’
* Be hostile toward feminists.
* Volunteer to help the government persecute almost anyone.
* Be mean-spirited toward those who have made mistakes and suffered.
* Be fearful of a dangerous world.
Table 2: Not-So-Healthy Ingroup Cohesion
RWA’s are more likely to:
* Strongly believe in group cohesiveness and ‘loyalty.’
* Insist on traditional sex roles.
* Use religion to erase guilt over their acts and to maintain their self-righteousness.
* Be ‘fundamentalists’ and the most prejudiced members of whatever religion they belong to.
* Accept unfair and illegal abuses of power by government authorities.
* Trust leaders (such as G W Bush) who are untrustworthy.
Table 3: Faulty reasoning
RWA’s are more likely to:
* Make many incorrect inferences from evidence.
* Hold contradictory ideas leading them to ‘speak out of both sides of their mouths.’
* Uncritically accept that many problems are ‘our most serious problem.’
* Uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs.
* Uncritically trust people who tell them what they want to hear.
* Use many double standards in their thinking and judgements.
Table 4: Profound Character Flaws
RWA’s are more likely to:
* Be dogmatic.
* Be zealots.
* Be hypocrites.
* Be bullies when they have power over others.
* Help cause and inflame intergroup conflict.
* Seek dominance over others by being competitive and destructive in situations requiring cooperation.
Table 5: Blindness To Own Failings
RWA’s are more likely to:
* Believe they have no personal failings.
* Avoid learning about their personal failings.
* Be highly self-righteous.
* Use religion to erase guilt over their acts and to maintain their self-righteousness.
Table 6: RWA’s Political Tendencies
RWA’s are more likely to:
* Weaken constitutional guarantees of liberty, such as the Bill of Rights.
* Accept unfair and illegal abuses of power by government authorities.
* Trust leaders (such as G W Bush) who are untrustworthy.
* Sometimes join left-wing movements, where their hostility distinguishes them.
* But much more typically endorse right-wing political parties.
* Be conservative/Reform party (Canada) or Republican Party (United States) lawmakers who
1. have a conservative economic philosophy;
2. believe in social dominance;
3. are ethnocentric;
4. are highly nationalistic;
5. oppose abortion;
6. support capital punishment;
7. oppose gun-control legislation;
8. say they value freedom but actually want to undermine the Bill of Rights;
9. do not value equality very highly and oppose measures to increase it;
10. are not likely to rise in the Democratic party, but do so among Republicans.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.