Monday Open Thread
So the Olympics are (finally?) over. The US came in first in total medals with 110 . China had the most gold medals with 51 and the 2nd most total medals with 100.
Skyboxes during Obama's acceptance speech at Invesco Field are going for $1,000 . Most seats are reserved for VIPs and those corporations and unions who donated heavily to the DNC.
The Russian Duma is calling for President Medvedev to formally recognize the de-facto independent Georgian territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as being fully independent of Georgia . As of this date, no other countries formally recognize the independence of these territories.
Submitted by stinerman on Mon, 2008-08-25 08:20
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Got any good election-related personal stories?
Maybe from going door-to-door, maybe from chatting with friends, whatever -- anything odd or interesting?
We got an anonymous postcard in the mail with a fake news story about Obama, and I took a phone call for what I thought was a poll that quickly turned into a push-poll for a local politician, but things have actually been pretty tame this season so far. I know that's not the case everywhere...
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I'm tired of ads
Being in Ohio, the airwaves are constantly plastered with McCain and Obama ads. It gets really old when you're watching the local news and the same ad repeats at every commercial break.
I recall the day before the primary there was an ad break that was nothing but political ads. Amazing.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
I wonder what the return on investment is for those
After a while you'd think voters would just tune all that stuff out.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Israel lets prisoners go
CNN
: Israel released nearly 200 prisoners into the West Bank Monday, a move it says is a goodwill gesture aimed at bolstering efforts to end decades of conflict in the region.
Seems like a productive step, with the announced goal being to shore up confidence in Abbas. We'll see if it leads to any concrete talks -- probably nothing will happen until Olmert leaves.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
M-A-R-S...
Iran is going to Mars
In order to go to Mars, Iran is going to build non-dual purpose, completely peaceful ICBM technology.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Awesome
Good thing their leaders are so open about their intentions, or they might precipitate a crisis with this sort of brinksmanship and grandstanding.
The Iranian people would be better served by a government that was more concerned with improving their daily lives rather than saber rattling. Oppressive regimes have always sought to cling to power by fomenting an us-against-them mentality; hopefully the US and UN can walk the fine line between not appearing overly belligerent while still keeping a lid on Iranian military ambitions. Purely defensive or utterly nonexistent though they may be, of course.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
You read /.?
The political discussions on there are great for the first few hundred posts and then they devolve into flamewars.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Does McCain want Terrorist Watch List to be able to buy guns?
This article in Newsweek titled "Silence On A ‘Terror Gap’
" says:
"Sen. John McCain portrays himself as a strong supporter of Second Amendment rights. But does that extend to gun rights for suspected terrorists? His campaign won't say where he stands on a bill to eliminate a gun-control loophole that even the Bush administration wants closed: a gap in federal law that inhibits the government from stopping people on terrorist watch lists from buying guns...Registration documents filed by Scheunemann's company, Orion Strategies, list the terror-gap bill as one of its specific lobbying objectives, and the registrations listed Scheunemann as a lobbyist until he took a leave. McCain's campaign refused to answer questions about whether the senator supports or opposes the White House plan to close the loophole, and it also declined to say if Scheunemann had ever lobbied McCain on gun-control bills. "Randy Scheunemann is a foreign-policy adviser to Senator McCain, and he is on leave from Orion Strategies. We have no further comment," says Jill Hazelbaker, a campaign spokeswoman."
They sound like the bush43 White House people already. They promise to hit the ground running with the best obstructionists money can buy.
Now the airline watch list is now over 1 million names. Is that the list cause that list already sucks with all the wrong names on it and all. Here's a funny case to see how some of our conservative Second Amendment supporters shake out.
Vacation, all I ever wanted
Vacation, got to get away
(Oh, yes, I did quote the Go-go's)
I'm taking a vacation next week. Other than my sabbatical last year that's the first vacation I've taken in six years. Work has been pretty frustrating recently so I'm looking forward to it.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Shocking Reference
What's next? Bananarama lyrics?
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
I'm your venus
I'm your fire
It's your desire
Quoted from memory.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I recommend
turning off the computer and TV to maximize relaxation...
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
TV yes
computer, no. Or atleast there will be no broadcast or cable Tv at Casa Tlaloc. in fact there hasn't been since 2002. I do have a sizable collection of DVDs that I like to put on in the background while I do other things.
As for the computer, well one of the big projects is a written piece. Besides, I do love games.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
check this McCain ad
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
She used the wrong tense
McCain used to be a Maverick and used to have independent leanings.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
but she looks good
so anything she says will go over well, right? :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Debra Bartoshevich claimed McCain opposed overturning Roe v.
Wade:
"Going back to 1999, John McCain did an interview with the San Francisco Chronicle saying that overturning Roe v. Wade would not make any sense, because then women would have to have illegal abortions."
His new favorite Democratic puppet seems to be taking liberties with McSame's beliefs.
She's right, he did
Of course he quickly reversed that position so I don't think anyone woud hardly want to base anything on that.
McCain tries the'Chicken Prank'
"But before the networks take the ad too seriously, they should consider an anecdote about the "chicken prank" from TNR's Eve Fairbanks.
I almost feel like a dupe writing about the second pro-Hillary ad McCain released today at 6am: It's a stunt, a trick meant to keep him in the press during the Democratic convention and gin up more Hillary-Obama-tension media storylines. Message: neener neener neener.
It is, in fact, the political equivalent of a prank legendarily pulled at my high school in which students procured well fewer than 20 live chickens, numbered them 1 through 20 with magic markers (leaving some numbers out), set them loose, and then sat back and gleefully watched as hapless school officials ran around the school searching for the remaining missing chickens that had never actually existed."
McCain = more of the same.
Operation Spoiled Goods
"....credibility doesn't matter. The victor will not be asked whether he told the truth."
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
The politics on both sides is more of the same NT.
NT.
Hillary Does Not Approve This Message
“Every one of us could stand up and recite all the reasons why we must elect Barack. The Supreme Court is at stake; our educational system needs the right kind of change. We’ve got to become energy independent; we have to create millions of new green collar jobs. We’ve got so much work to do around the world.
“None of that will happen if John McCain is in the White House. I just want to make it absolutely clear we cannot afford four more years of George W. Bush’s failed policies in America and that’s what we would get with John McCain.
"Now I understand that the McCain campaign is running ads trying to divide us and let me state what I think about their tactics and these ads: I am Hillary Clinton and I do not approve that message.
“So let there be the no mistake about it, we are united. We are united for change.”
Source
It is the economy, stupid.
It's a good line
but I'm not sure whether her speech will get the same amount of airplay and media discussion as did McCain's ad.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
It will at the convention
is my feeling. Hillary is trying to get her diehards an outlet to 'grieve' by expressing their support, and then make sure they understand that McCain is not an acceptable alternative.
The delegates are full of gritty, steely eyed determination!
I did a drive by today to pick up the good vibes, since I live just ten minutes from down town. (Parking is sparse) It's wild knowing that I have to share my town with the likes of William Kristol, and Joe Scarboro. 15,000 Media are here! Also weird watching TV when the scenes are in your backyard.
If you see any of the shows on CSpan from the bank building, look behind and find that tall white tower in the background towards the mountains. I live just a few blocks away. Look harder and you will see my waving!
It is quite exciting.
It is the economy, stupid.
I think that makes you
our local correspondent, reporting live from Denver for Swords Crossed =)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I can pretend
but what I see of the convention, will be what I see from my couch on my TV.
People here are in good moods, mostly. Lots of buzz and commotion.
I am very proud of Mayor Hickenlooper and Gov. Ritter. They have done awesome job getting the town ready. Two years of planning.
Forty extra hours of training for the police, to guarantee that it is NOT the police that is the spark of any problems.
So far I have seen some bad ass secret service men in a rickety golf cart patrolling downtown.
Policemen and security on every corner. They all seem friendly and happy.
I am sure it is that extra good liberal vibe in the air from having so many good democrats being concentrated in one area!
It is the economy, stupid.
What convention are you watching? LOL!
Craig Crawford at CQ
has the story;
"The Democratic convention now teeters on the brink of a
media disaster thanks to real news that threatens to distract
reporters from the scripted show.
And wouldn't you know, it's all about the Clintons. The trouble
with the news-free nature of modern conventions is how anything
unplanned can instantly get of hand with thousands of reporters in
town vying for every morsel of something different."
The word on the street is total meltdown.
The Clintons and their advisors aren't even staying for the final
speech.
Bill Clinton is openly whining about his speaking
assignment.
And that's before Joe Biden stuffs most of his leg in his
mouth.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Your 'concern' is duly noted
It is the economy, stupid.
Tens of PUMA's March in Denver
A crowd of about three dozen women and one man are marching down 16th Street in support of Hillary Clinton, chanting "No we won't," "18 million votes" and "No secret ballot."
I hope you aren't heart broken that the mob was less than 40.
It is the economy, stupid.
Um...Duly noted, I suppose...? n/t
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
If I may use a pointy stick
It's a bit bizarre that I can't find John McCain's name GOP here.
Whereas the leader of the party is obvious here
Doesn't the GOP want to claim John McCain?
It is the economy, stupid.
I meant to add....
.... this to my post above.
As for the GOP, McCain is still the presumtive nominee, after the converntion it will be there. And as you can see there is plenty of information aknowledging his impending status change.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
your link is broken
formula
name of link
It is the economy, stupid.
Ooppss...
More in an article here: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12782.html
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Obama's tax proposal
is examined here
in the context of breaking the simplistic higher/lower taxes that supposedly defines liberal/conservative policies.
I think both sides
have conceded ideological ground on taxes but liberals now have the more logical approach from an economic standpoint.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Yeah I'm still waiting for the return of the balanced budget
Republican - they did use to exeist didn't they?
I'm with you there...
...Republicans didn't lose the congress, we were fired for not doing the things Republicans do, cut spending etc.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
I'm skeptical of whether there's enough spending to cut
in order to balance the budget. But if there is, I'm all for it. But the have your cake and eat it too philosophy of lower taxes, higer spending and still being able to balance the budget needs to be destroyed. There use to be Republicans open to sometimes having higher taxes - see GHWB.
Please elaborate, the government is...
...full of wasteful spending and unnecessary entitlements!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Well, I've never seen an actual budget and I imagine even
that wouldn't give a clear picture of where the money is going. I'm just skeptical that's there's 500 million dollars to cut without cutting into military spending, supplying the true needs of those who are needy and truly can't get a job, and enough infrastructure or whatever to keep order in the USA. Now maybe there is, if so great let's cut it. Part of Republicans trouble in connecting with voters on the economy is lack of a clear plan to balance the buget. Just cutting taxes and expecting ever increasing revenue has been tried for the past eight years, and McCain needs to make it clear that's he has more than that. McCain should come up with ballpark figures of how much he's going to cut and where, and how's that's going to balance the budget. If McCain can show how he's going to balance the budget he could take the advantage away from Obama - since this is an issue uniting Dems, Repubs and Indys, and anybody paying attention.
Yeah, that's the problem
There just isn't enough pork to make a huge difference.
Of course it's still a very good idea to cut wasteful spending. But that alone isn't going to balance the budget, with non-discretionary spending increasing and with the "one-time" bills for spending on Iraq/Afghanistan.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Some numbers
here
. I don't know if this is the latest from the McCain campaign.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Well that's a start
If I remember my figures right though, that's about 300 Billion dollars short.
Well John, if BO won the election he would have...
...increased spending by 300 B-B-B-Billion dollars!
I mean come on now!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
TAX BREAKS ARE BAD (no more lower taxes)!!
from the link:
In seriousness, increasing pay roll taxes is a back door in raising the federal tax burden of any worker.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Yes, but with the
"doughnut hole" it only kicks in over $250k/yr.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
You need to look into it and not just listen to the TP's...
...Obama's plan is a giant wealth redistribution scam
on the average American!
Marginal tax rates will soar
and so net tax will increase on everyone 
except the poor who will receive a check.
Talk about backdoor policies!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
The checks should be going to China...
to pay off the debt.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Look man I didn't say Obama
Allthough tax-policy center chart on what plans effect what people - I like Obama's plan a lot better, but I'll to look at both sides of the issues.
And fyi this is kind of an academic debate for me, since Iraq and courts are enough reason for me to vote for McCain.
Yes, pork won't do it.
It will take cuts in spending on both discretionary and non-discretionary. That means eliminating departments and drastic cuts to moderate cuts in others.
But, yes, that's a nearly impossible thing to do. Thinking up programs is painless. Cutting ones that are not needed is nearly impossible because once they're, we "can't live without them" and people will scream bloody murder. It's pathetic how irresponsible people are with public money.
Seems to me his tax plan...
...would raise marginal tax rates on the middle class
contrary to their claims.
They are also giving tax refunds to low income people who don't pay taxes, another way of redistribting wealth without admitting what you're doing!
The Republican plan gives incentive to individuals to work hard and prosper, not sit around and wait for the government to do it for them.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
I wasn't endorsing Obama's plan
I'm not in love with either politician when it comes to the economy.
I still like steve forbes'...
...flat tax
ideas.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
I don't think that's the relevant number
If I'm a tax payer I'm not concerned with distinguishing between taxes and credits, I just want to know the bottom line.
Which is here
-- Obama gives back more $$ for lower brackets and soaks the rich (by rolling back the Bush cuts). Of course it's worth debating whether that's the best approach, but from a selfish standpoint if you're not making more than a hundred grand/year you might prefer Obama's plan.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Please if we discuss this...
...don't try to tell me Obama's plan is better or fairer for ANYONE in America.
Lets just lay it out side by side for starters.
It is simply a rouse for redistributing wealth from Most Americans to the people who pay no taxes, and a way to fund 300 B-B-Billion in new spending!
Surprise, surprise?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Obama's plan is better for 80%. McCains only gives the wealthy
even more and screws the middle class to do so.
not to be taking sides
...because I don't support McCain...but that's quite a bold assertion....all around
How do you define or defend any of that? And what exactly does "screw the middle class" mean? I suppose defining "better" would help as well. Come to think of it, defining "help" would also be useful.
Again, I'm really just trying to understand because that all strikes me as very hyperbolic.
I did lay it out side by side
in terms of the number that matters: the $$ owed in taxes.
The top rate only impacts a small fraction of tax payers.
It is the rates in the lower brackets, and the credits, that impact the middle class. Unless you earn more than about $100K/yr Obama's plan is better for you personally.
It's not a ruse, it's a perfectly logical implementation of the liberal safety-net ideology. If you don't like it then vote Republican... just don't be surprised if spending doesn't actually get cut (look at their record), leading to continued growth in the debt that will require higher taxes and/or savage spending cuts at some point.
(Also, not all of Obama's proposed spending is financed by tax cuts. Decreased spending on the war is a huge financial saver, and there are other claimed savings; for example, projected net economic gains from streamlining health care could in theory also help.)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
That's the plan
The plan
.
I wonder how many conservatives would put up with high taxes just as long as that money wasn't going to poor people.
/still waiting for my high tax, low spending party
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
What would all that tax money be for, then? nt
How 'bout paying down the debt? n/t
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Paying off the debt
I'd imagine.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
The others are correct
We've got about $10 trillion in debt to pay off.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
That's fine
Then it's a question of how much goes to pay the debt every year.
That debt has accumulated over generations. It wouldn't be fair to pay it down too fast and overly burden current taxpayers.
Not just unfair
but potentially counterproductive.
I imagine even fiscal conservatives agree that government spending puts some money back into the economy somewhere, even if they don't find it an efficient way to use that money. I imagine even fiscal liberals agree that taxes high enough to not just balance the budget but to pay down the debt genuinely can discourage productivity.
So paying down the debt is a good goal but as you say needs to be approached with an eye towards maintaining economic growth.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
As soon as can be reasonably expect
It isn't fair that we have it in the first place.
Step 2 is a balanced budget amendment.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
You're right. It isn't fair
that we have it in the first place. But it's always been there going back many decades and it has mainly just grown every year with a few blips of exception. Point being, current tax payers did not put that debt there. Pay it down a little at a time. Fine. But people have their lives to lead at the same time.
I pay 11% in State & 27% in my Federal income taxes.
Why do we have so many large corporations and extremely wealthy individuals who pay less (as a percentage) of thier income than I do. And I really don't want the response to be because their lawyers & accountants found the loopholes. Yea, I understand that. My point was that the tax system isn't right when the wealthy don't pay their part too. Now is the whole problem the wealthy? Hell No. There's so much stuff we shouldn't be paying for but there's also so much stuff we should be paying for.
I'd be happy to keep the budget rising at the rate of inflation but attack where what goes and pay down the debt.
That is absolutely...
"I really don't want the response to be because their lawyers &
accountants found the loopholes. Yea, I understand that. My point was
that the tax system isn't right when the wealthy don't pay their part
too."
...preposterous!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
"Federal Tax Burden" And "Poverty Level" vs "Federal Income Tax"
I like to use "Federal Tax Burden" numbers and not only the "Federal Income Tax" numbers [mentioned in part "10." in your link.
Federal Income Tax =money paid to IRS buy an individual
Federal Tax Burden = Federal Income Tax + Payroll Taxes (paid by "employer" because an individual is working there)
I also like to only include money that was made above the poverty level ( Discretionary income + taxes to be paid
) and using Federal Tax Burden, the the top 1%/5%/20% are making out better than the 2nd lowest quintile "families" (more or less the lower middle class).
The higher the poverty level is in a given place, the relatively "better off" the "rich" are because of the current tax system.
A hodgepodge of useful, unuseful findings are found here
ignore this comment, I was in the process of editing when someone replied
More or less, I think my POV looking at individual tax the same way corporate taxes are looked at (only "profits" are taxed).
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
If you want
you can put links from discussions in open threads (like your "hodgepodge of useful, unuseful findings") in the "Special Topics" section under "Open Thread Discussions" -- might make it easier to have a permanent marker, and then other people can find it too.
It's not used much yet but when I get a chance I might put a few links there myself to some old in-depth conversations that I have to search for now every time I want to reference them.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
So maybe you should be paying between
12% and 0% in federal income tax instead.
BTW, 27% seems not only high but odd. How much of your income is taxed at 27%?
John, did you see...
...this
?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
No that graph in particualr
nice to see it laid out in a chart. thanks.
Between the top tax bracket...
...capital gains tax, death taxes, the alternative minimum tax rate, taxes on small business, tax hikes on marriage penalties, limitations on depreciation, and excessive windfall profits tax this country will tank!
We need to stimulate the economy, not choke it to death.
Obama's plan is crazy.
And do you realize he's doing all that to fund (Partially) his NEW 300 BILLION in NEW spending!!!!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
What happened to Kindness?
Out trying to google yourself a tax theory? ;-)
Obama's plan is profoundly flawed, and be sure you will be hearing all about it in the coming weeks after the convention.
It is the most colossal tax and spend device in the history of the world, that besides basic government services, roads def