Friday/Weekend Open Thread

I am flying out tonight, so will be out this weekend. Have a great weekend all!

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Obama Caves - Hillary Wins Roll Call Vote

Russia rolls over Georgia, Hillary Clinton does the same to Barack Obama. Now we know who's boss.

Obama blinked and stands guilty of appeasing Clinton by agreeing to a roll call vote for her nomination. That he might not have had much choice if he wanted peace only proves the point that he's playing defense at his own convention.

What does he get out of it? Not much and not for long.

The fleeting sense that he is a magnanimous nominee won't get him a single vote he wouldn't get anyway. Ditto for the idea that he's going the extra mile to unify the party. Those who refuse to accept him as the legitimate winner aren't likely to do so just because he caves into her demands.

It makes him look weak and ratifies Clinton's sense of entitlement to share party leadership and the convention spotlight.

It was supposed to be his party. Now it's theirs. His and hers.

The substantive problem for Obama is that he is already underperforming against John McCain. He limped across the finish line in the primaries and, since Clinton conceded in June, his poll numbers have flat-lined.

In the face of that lackluster showing, his choices have been curious. The time spent in Europe and now in Hawaii might have been better spent courting the white, working-class voters who have proved immune to his charms.

Trying to bring them into the tent by agreeing to Clinton's growing demands is a poor substitute for direct appeals. She might not be able to deliver them, even if she tries.

Yet already the list of what Hillary wants and what Hillary gets is unprecedented for somebody who lost the nomination. She gets a prime-time address where she will be introduced by daughter Chelsea. She gets her own team to produce a hagiographic video of her.

Hubby Bubba gets a prime-time speech on Wednesday night. And Hillary gets a platform plank that uses "glass ceiling" language right out of her speech to suggest she would be the nominee if not for sexism.

A few more big-ticket items and she'll be the co-nominee. Maybe that's the point.

It reminds me of a Cold War joke about how the Russians view a compromise. They come to the table and announce the rules: What's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable.

How would President Obama respond?

I think we just found out...

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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A** backwards

Hillary asked that her name not be thrown in the ring.

Obama asked her to put it in as he thought it would help heal the party.

The Republican propaganda machine is doing a fine job of leading you around by your nose and your prejudices.

Since your first statement is blatantly false, I put no credence in the rest of your conclusions.

Face it, the only hope for Republicans is to continue out and out lying ala Jerome Corsi, biggoted racist antii-semitic hack, or to suddenly become pro-Hillary, a woman who was the target of every Republican smear imaginable for over a decade.

Pathetic.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

"D" is for denial...

This was THE LAST THING Barack Obama wanted! 

Are you on another planet? 

I got one acronym for you, "P.U.M.A ."

How about "The Denver Group ?

It's pressure from these groups, who will not rest until Hillary Clinton is nominated, that FORCED Obama to give in! 

It is truely sad to see you are so spun out you don't even live in reality, nor are you capable of talking about the issues as they REALLY exist?

 

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Not everything is a conspiracy

I have no reason to doubt the commonly accepted story. I can't prove it, but it isn't really all that important to me either. Neither can you prove your assertion.

It seems to me that Obama would want Hillary supporters to be able to vote for their candidate of choice, hoping this would help to heal any rifts in the party. This is certainly plausible, and makes good sense from Obama's perspective.

If you have some direct evidence from a neutral or disinterested observer that Obama was pressured to accept Clinton's name rather than on a voluntary basis, I'd love to hear it.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Dream on.....

Try reading this.

Puma had to cancel their big rally at the ritz hotel, because they couldn't even get 250 people to sign up.

They also had to rethink their 'massive' bussing strategy to bus the thousands of
puma cats that were going to rally in Denver. In fact they didn't even raise enough money for one bus.

The so called 'pressure' from these groups is way overhyped. A throng of thousands turned into a handful of stragglers.

Pathetic.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

A joke to lighten the mood

Is PUMA PAC like Cougar PAC?

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Where were these cougars

when I was young and needed a sexually voracious older woman to teach me?

qui tacet consentire

………… parent

Sourcing

It's not a big deal, but you should really consider linking to the source of the articles you quote, or at least noting that they are in fact quotes. For all we knew, you wrote that whole post yourself. Or are you Michael Goodwin ?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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You read the NY Daily News!

;-)

I did think that was an R_W original.

It is the economy, stupid.

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That's incredibly important

Actually it is a big deal. Passing off someone else's work as your own is low as low gets.

I could care less about the wholesale copying and pasting of copyrighted works because our current copyright system is a joke, but Ender has to deal with any DMCA takedowns anyone sends his way. I'm sure he's not going to enjoy extra work due to anyone who doesn't respect copyright law.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Certainly...

I just saw it and thought it would be good for the open thread conversation...

I can not edit it now, sorry.

How do we make those quotes I see in blue blocks?

Thx.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Blue blocks

You just use the blockquote button in the editor. (The one with the little blue arrow pointing right.)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Oh I see, thx.... ;-) n/t

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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More odd political dreams

I had my Obama dream today. It was quite vivid and lively:

I was at an Obama fundraiser. I asked him if it was true, under the Constitution, that the federal government can require specific voting standards (it can, Art. 1, Sec. 4) for the US Congress. If this was so, why doesn't he support IRV or AV or any other alternative voting method so that minor party/independent candidates can't spoil the election.

He got quite furious with me and refused to answer my question. When I asked again if it was true, he stopped me and said "You don't know what it says?". I replied that I wasn't absolutely sure, and anyway he was the lawyer. At that point he just about had me thrown out and I received boos from the Obama faithful. Apparently he and others thought I was implying being a lawyer is a poor profession.

Near the end of the fundraiser I approached him privately and asked my question again. He cut me off with a simple "yes" about the Constitution but still refused to answer the question about why he didn't support alternative voting methods.

Quite odd.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

…………

It means

you must vote for him, obviously! ;-)

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Yes...Use the Force.

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Stinerman...

...it doesn't take a dream interpreter to see that your higher consciousness is speaking to you in no uncertain terms.

It is illuminating in the core of your inner wisdom, and knowing as to the true nature of, and basis for Obama's derangement.

His unwillingness to give a straight answer. His intrinsic sense of arrogance, and ease to take offense when pressed for an answer to a legitimate question. His utter inability to commit to anything, even when backed into a corner. It's all there.

Think about it... ;-)

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Charlie the Unicorn

Whoever did this must have gotten into some bad acid.

qui tacet consentire

…………

Here's a scary one...

Intelligence officials have discovered an online Al Qaeda manual that prescribes that group leaders should training new recruits to operate as smaller cells around the globe.

The manual, called Method for Building the Personality of a Terrorist Mujahid and written by an Islamist forum contributor nicknamed “Shamil al-Baghdadi,” encourages militant followers to stop focusing on pulling off attacks on the scale of 9-11 and to start executing numerous smaller attacks.

If for some reason the mission fails, the Jihadi must not abort, but instead carry on alone, as a one-man cell, the paper quotes New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly as saying while quoting from the manual.

It advocates assassinations by shooting, poisoning and booby-trapping cell phones and computers.

Further, targets are to be prioritized by ranking them into categories such as “high profile,” which represent presidents and prime ministers.

Recruits are also told to organize credit card scams and to rob police stations in order to get hold of weapons.

However, the most shocking revelation are the lessons on kidnapping, with orders to slaughter hostages in a way that will terrify the public.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2052529/posts?page=604

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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They left out the mushroom clouds over NY

All newly uncovered al Qaeda manuals must make reference to attempts to acquire nukes through their contacts in Iran.

At least the ones uncovered by Free Republic.

qui tacet consentire

………… parent

Do some research before you puke...

The story is just breaking in the MSM all over, idiot!

 

Don't be a jerk!!! 

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Free Republic

does not really have a reputation for honest, unsensational coverage of the issues ;-)

But, to address this with some modicum of seriousness:

Intelligence officials have discovered an online Al Qaeda manual that prescribes that group leaders should training new recruits to operate as smaller cells around the globe .... If for some reason the mission fails, the Jihadi must not abort, but instead carry on alone, as a one-man cell ...it advocates assasinations ... targets are to be prioritized ... lessons on kidnapping, with orders to slaughter hostages in a way that will terrify the public.

Um, if our own intelligence officials failed to imagine this type of thing going on, and they needed to find a book (gasp!) to enlighten them as to what a real terrorist might be doing, then I want them to repay every tax dollar of mine they've taken over the last decade.

In other words, this is not news, nor anything that should come as a surprise to a thinking person. This is sensationalism, designed to provoke an emotional response in a gullible public.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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No doubt

.it advocates assasinations[sic] ... targets are to be prioritized ... lessons on kidnapping, with orders to slaughter hostages in a way that will terrify the public.

In fact, that's a pretty good definition of "terrorism".

Newsflash: Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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You criticized them, then printed verbatim what they said?

It is not sensationalism? It is a change in what the terror group is advocating.

Thank you for being the editor of what makes news though?

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Common practice on this blog

It's common practice for many here to blockcopy the portion of the preceeding post that he or she is responding to ;-) It merely signifies a desire for clarity, not an endorsement of what has been said.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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Ok, sorry, i thought....

...You were quoting another article, my bad.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Sorry, but freep makes me puke instantly

If you want a reasoned response try posting from someplace other than a right-wing echo chamber.

qui tacet consentire

………… parent

Is MSN...

...middle of road enough for you?

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Terror tactics

You know what? AQ is not very good at this whole thing.

Yes, yes, 9/11 was the most impressive terrorist attack in history. It was a masterpiece in the medium really. But they had no follow up. It was one big hit and then nothing.

What's described here is what I would have done from day 1. Put in place say 100 agents. You have 20 that pull off the big hit on 9/11. Then for the following weeks and months you have the rest of the agents setting off small bombs in mini-malls, gas stations, movie theaters out in nowheresville, USA. I'd have avoided suicide tactics and big attacks to instead focus on making the hits as hard to trace as possible, and as random as possible. Also a focus on traps to take out emergency responders would work well (set a fire in an apartment building and plant an IED outside near the hydrants to detonate once the fire dpeartment is on site). Make sure the FBI is so overwhelmed that they can't get anything done.

As effective as 9/11 was for hitting a big target (okay 2 big targets) the majority of Americans don't live in NYC or DC. If you show that the big cities are vulnerable to big attacks and *also* that living in some small town was no protection then you would have seen real terror.

And AQ still would have gotten the big military response we so obligingly gave them.

It's times like these that I have to laugh at those who want to pretend that AQ is a serious existential threat instead of the truth- they're bumbling incompetents who got very lucky once.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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FISA Redux: The Slippery Slope Becomes A Mine Shaft

I've seen this around the web, but this one covers it cleanest.

From Spencer S. Hsu and Carrie Johnson in today's Washington Post:

" The Justice Department has proposed a new domestic spying measure that would make it easier for state and local police to collect intelligence about Americans, share the sensitive data with federal agencies and retain it for at least 10 years.

The proposed changes would revise the federal government's rules for police intelligence-gathering for the first time since 1993 and would apply to any of the nation's 18,000 state and local police agencies that receive roughly $1.6 billion each year in federal grants.

Quietly unveiled late last month, the proposal is part of a flurry of domestic intelligence changes issued and planned by the Bush administration in its waning months. They include a recent executive order that guides the reorganization of federal spy agencies and a pending Justice Department overhaul of FBI procedures for gathering intelligence and investigating terrorism cases within U.S. borders. (Emphasis added)"

Last minute love kisses from the bush43 regime. Why don't they just confiscate all the original Constitution copies and burn them on the way out. Yup...more police state. That'll sure stop Osama from attacking us again!

…………

Hey now, hey now, don't dream this FISA deal is a problem...

so long as one thinks the right party is in office.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I don't think you or I...

...are educated as to the intelligence at large to be able to comment.

Aside from the obvious concerns... ;-)

There are a lot of bad people walking among us right now though.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Since when did conservatives use the Constitution to wipe their

asses? You'd never have let Bill Clinton nor any other Democratic President have the range of trampling you've let dubya's crew in on. 9/11 didn't change everything. Apparently it did make it OK for some to openly speak their love and admiration for a totalitarian society....order, peace and security.

That is so superficial. That is such a shallow way to treat a beautiful idea of government that the Constitution speaks about.

Take a look though. How many of the 10 steps to Fascism have we already taken? I say that the only one they haven't fully carried out is 7. Every other one has been met. A glorious day for you.

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Why are you attacking me?

Because I dare say you and I are not privy to all the information, and our society is filled with people who dislike us?

Well, I'm sorry, but it's true.

I mentioned the obvious concerns we all share in protecting our privacy.

But you just ignored that and went on auto pilot.

You can wipe your ass with your simple minded dribble 10 times, oh make that 9 times, since you ripped the 7th sheet up!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Not as many as you'd like to believe

The world is a much safer place than most people think.

In fact, I'd be willing to say this might well be the safest time in which anyone has ever lived.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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You know they won't win

;-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Went and saw Tropic Thunder tonight.

You know, the one that offends everyone , with Ben Stiller, Jack Black, Robert Downey Jr, Nick Nolte & Tom Cruise.

It was funny! yea, you could be offended at a lot of it's humor, but just like Stiller schtick, it's all done over the top. The only real boring part of being over the top was they dropped the F bomb about every 3rd word. Literally. But you could see that even that was set up as to be too much. Yea. That was.

The rest of it is really enjoyable. I laughed a lot.

…………

I want to see that too...

I heard it was funny.

And right after it came out they wrote a lot of stuff about how the whole black face thing was MSM hyperbole.

Cool, thanks! ;-)

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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What is the feeling... ...

...that it is a fact that Barack Obama could not be Vetted for VP? He has way too many issues. How do you offset that fact in the coming election?

Please don't be crazy partisan, but really, help me see how you see it.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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An exercise

First, find everything wrong (in terms of "issues") about John McCain that you can see from your point of view. Now start really reaching to find fault with every last element of hearsay or emotional argument you've ever heard about McCain. Then you'll see how you see Obama. This is called confirmation bias , and all partisans have it to varying degrees, the worst being true-believer syndrome .

If someone is invested into a particular candidate, they will discard any evidence that would cause them to change their mind about the candidate and will believe any evidence that puts them more strongly behind the candidate. This way of working backwards from a past conclusion is a way to relieve cognitive dissonance . Most people will believe their past conclusions are correct and will fit the evidence to their preconceptions (*cough* Iraq *cough) so that they don't have to own up to the fact that they were wrong all along.

Tolstoy said it best:

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life".

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Good piont...

...and in all honesty, do you think that phenomenon is affecting the majority of Obama or McCain supporters in America currently.

Though that BO number is going down every day as people are realizing what they're getting themselves into.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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All hard-core partisans act this way

A majority of hard-core partisans, for sure, but I can't say much about anything else. The fact that you think voting for Obama gets someone into something is a reason for pause. I'm pretty sure I'm voting for Nader. What does that get me into? You imply that wanting Obama to win implies daily worship of the man, while people who back McCain just as intently are simply even-minded patriots who are doing what is best for their country.

If you'll allow me to backtrack a bit, I'll agree that some of the more staunch supporters of Obama are a bit off their rocker. I think to many people Obama represents the entirety of the horrible things that were done to black people over the course of our country's history. People are taking their shame and throwing it on Obama's back -- as if somehow if he became President our past treatment of blacks would be forgiven and forgotten. I'll have to defer to Charles's judgment on how the black community sees an Obama presidency, since I am woefully out of touch with the black community after leaving my past job at an HBCU.

Regardless of who wins, the world will not end. I think Bush was the worst president in history, but I still have enough to eat. I have this computer. I might not be employed, but I get by. If John McCain wins, I won't die. If Barack Obama wins, I won't be a millionaire. I think if the latter wins, I'll be better off, but if the former wins, I won't be busking at the corner of Washington and Market (Sandusky's "downtown") to make ends meet.

We'll all be fine either way.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

What makes you think you'd be...

..."Better Off" if BO wins?

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

taxes

or the economy.

Obama's tax plan and his economic advisors are far more qualified and much more interested in bringing back the middle class than McCain's tax plan which maintains the status quo.

Sen. Obama believes that one of the principal problems facing the economy today is the lack of discretionary income for middle-class wage earners. That's why his plan would not raise any taxes on couples making less than $250,000 a year, nor on any single person with income under $200,000 -- not income taxes, capital gains taxes, dividend or payroll taxes.

The McCain plan represents Bush economics on steroids. It has $3.4 trillion more in tax cuts than President Bush is proposing, largely directed at corporations and the most affluent. Sen. McCain would implement these cuts without proposing any meaningful steps to simplify taxes or eliminate distortions and loopholes. In addition, Sen. McCain has floated over $1 trillion in new spending increases but barely any specific spending cuts.

Senator McCain's has surrounded himself with Bush's henchmen for advisors. So we would expect little to change in this trickle up, trickle outside the US, economy. We have old school types who are interested in maintaining the status quo. McCain's folks want to hold on tight to keep things the way they are.

Look at the list of folks who would be advising Obama, and likely be in his cabinent, and holding key positions. It is comprised of a diverse group of folks with extraordinary qualifications, who are eager to tackle the challenges we face with new ideas.

McCain is a hard core idealogue.

Obama is much more of a pragmatist (which infuriates some progressives).

In this election the cautious alternative is to vote for change.

The status quo is unacceptable.

It is the economy, stupid.

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ML said it

I don't know anyone who makes more than $250,000/yr. In fact, I doubt I know anyone who makes half that.

Obama will not raise taxes on me or anyone I know. McCain might not raise taxes on me but the lost revenue will ensure that some government programs will not be there for me if I (or anyone I know) needs them.

A McCain presidency is a recipe for more debt. We can't afford any more debt.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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You stole my Halo 3 name, [Judge Dredd]

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Wrong picture

It looks more like this .

To wit.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Ben Stein voting for Nader

When asked why, he said, the country can't afford four more years of tax cuts and supply side economics.

It is the economy, stupid.

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I find that hard to believe.

If he feels that way I could see him going libertarian, but Nader?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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No kidding

I was channel flipping last night and happened to come across it on CSPAN. I about fell off my couch.

That was amazing.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

To the point

where folks making around $150 thou are on the lower end of the middle class?

If you consider how much it costs to buy a house (except in Ohio), own a car, pay for insurance, have cable TV and and internet hook up, plus an iPod (kidding), just as basic necessities. That's 2 thou a month without food or gas!

All I can figure is young couple's must be living in houses with no furniture.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Please link the Ben Stein comment, Thx. n/t

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Link

An interview with Brain Lamb and Ben Stein from CSpan's Q&A.

(You can watch the interview, or read the transcript. Stein is a true character and I have to say he's witty and droll at the same time.)

LAMB: But don’t you - I mean, I’m sitting here listening through this thing, I’m getting a lot of different impressions.

STEIN: Well, I have a lot of different views. There are many people inside of me.

LAMB: You know, you’re going to vote for Nader?

STEIN: I plan to vote for Nader.

LAMB: Why? If you love Karl Rove, do you like what he did towards George Bush?

STEIN: Well, I think Mr. Bush made some incredibly serious mistakes, incredibly serious. Going into Iraq was a big mistake, although it seems to be turning out better, but I have my doubts. I think the budget deficits and the voodoo economics, which I talk a lot about in this book, a little bit, I mean, nothing is talked about really a lot, it’s such a short book. But that was a terrible, terrible mistake.

I think lack of supervision and securities markets and the financial institutions was a serious mistake, but I think he’s basically a very nice guy and I like him a lot. He’s been very pro Israel which I like a lot and Karl Rove is just one of the most wonderful people I’ve ever met. He’s just a straight ahead wonderful, kind-hearted guy.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

As requested

here

You can watch the whole video if you like, but the summary says he discusses why he's for Nader. I saw the clip on TV last night. He said that he thinks McCain is essentially right on foreign policy, but that we can't afford more tax cuts. Stein said that while cutting taxes does increase business activity, the activity doesn't make up for the decreased revenues.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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If you are really so concerned...

...about it, take a look at the data , not the spin.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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What's the y-axis?

Remember Obama isn't the straight talk express and changes his opinion way too often, now Obama can give a tax credit or debit to those making under 85k or change the tax brackets. There is several months and Congressional approval before anything gets put in place.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Well, let's just look at one aspect of Obama's plan.

Obama said that he wants to “reform our tax code so that it rewards work and not just wealth.” I think that would be a great goal if it meant a simple tax system with low marginal tax rates.

Unfortunately, Obama’s proposals clearly show something disturbing, that is he would raise marginal tax rates for middle-income taxpayers, and that's a bad call for a
guy who says he wants to promote economic growth.

Although Obama is offering a new series of tax breaks, they undermine rather than improve economic incentives. First, whether or not you get those breaks will depend on your income. Taking away tax breaks as families work harder to make more money is called a “phase-out.”

Economists have a different name for it, they call it a tax. Reducing a person’s tax credit as his income goes up also reduces his incentive to earn more money.

Second, Obama would make some credits refundable for families with credits bigger than their tax liability, which would also have the negative effect of raising marginal tax rates.

For example,

"Consider a worker in the 10 percent bracket with $1,000 of tax liability before credits who claims $1,200 in credits. The tax impact of earning an extra $100 depends on whether the credit is refundable. If it’s not refundable, there’s no tax penalty on earning the extra $100 because the worker’s tax liability stays at zero. But if the credit is refundable, earning the extra money pushes the tax up from negative $200 to negative $190—that’s a 10 percent penalty on earning income."

Make sense?

"While Obama has publicly embraced a tax rate of 40 percent for couples earning over $350,000, his tax policies would result in a staggering 45 percent effective marginal rate in the $110,000 to $120,000 income range for this family. That is 11 percentage points higher than under current law."

Although John McCain would not eliminate the existing phase-outs, he would not be adding new ones, with one small and temporary exception. McCain has proposed increasing the personal exemption for children, he would make it immediately available only to lower-income taxpayers, until the bigger exemption is offered to everyone in 2016.

Americans should consider how those plans would affect incentives to earn income. Unfortunately, Senator Obama’s proposed “tax cuts for the middle class” are actually marginal rate hikes in disguise.

This is enough, and I have not even touched on the insane increases in Capital gains, estate, etc., taxes people will be burdened by under the Obama plan, or the fact that he is planning to "spend" 350 billion!

Tax & Spend at its finest ...ever!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Strike two

Please link to the source when quoting other articles verbatim.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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And as regards the article

That chart is based on "the marginal rates in 2009 for a two-earner couple with two children—a college freshman and a 12-year-old receiving after-school care—under some specific assumptions."

What kind of insane specific assumptions are required to have the marginal tax rate be 0% at $45,000 income, but 21% at $40,000 and 15% at $50,000? How many real families do you think such assumptions would actually represent? This appears to be pure chicanery and statistics trickery to me! Show me a chart with how the average tax margins change under Obama's tax plan and we can perhaps draw some reasonable conclusions.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Could you please

write the editors of this fear mongering tax rag and correct their bs.

It all sounds so very scholarly, so I guess some folks are fooled.

People have fallen for this scare tactic for far too long.

I live in the key state of Colorado and every other ad is about some democrat that's going to be the evil bogey man and raise your taxes until it's a *disaster for America*. I see it the other way around. It will be a disaster if we don't raise taxes.

It is the economy, stupid.

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I can give it a try

I'm not sure it will do much good, really. I suspect the editors are fully aware of the bias in the story, and published because of it, not in spite of it! I wish they allowed comments, though.

Any of the more economically-inclined scholars here want to take a look at this and see if my criticism is valid? I was hoping to get into a dialogue about it with Red_Wing. I hope I have not chased him away with my "Strike two" comment. RW, I've got no problem with using a published article as a jumping off point for a conversation - that's how it mostly works around here. Linking to the article allows us to read the whole thing, though, so we can all have a more open discussion about it. I would like to hear your opinion, RW, on my criticism as well!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I agree they published

because of the bias.

I would like to see folks embrace taxes that are reasonable as a 'national security' issue. To have a strong country, defense and economy we need taxes. Taxes are good for the country. ;-) With the internets it shouldn't be that hard to provide transparency to avoid corruption.

Most interesting tidbit, that the little dust up in Georgia, might have implications for the advocates of globalization. It seems BP is getting tossed around like a rag doll. Some countries resent the US imposing their standards on global markets.

The US is coming to the recognition that it is no longer the dominant influential economic powerhouse it once was. IN other words, it has become a victim of it's own globalization scheme. With the rise of China, India and Brazil. Will the US be blocked from doing trades with Russia?

As for RW he has 'inspired' lots of conversation here with his right wing talking points. ;_l. Doesn't McCain have a plan where you earn points for copying his talking points to other blogs? I tried to find out, but his site is not open. You have to join to have access to some areas, and I don't think I could bear up under the stress of getting Republican e-mails. I already have a tire gauge thank you.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Its still tough in Ohio -- no jobs

I know from friends that moving back home after graduation is getting to be almost normal. Unless you get a good job right out of college, it's incredibly tough to make ends meet, especially with tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt.

We get by. I have exactly 2 pieces of furniture that I bought (a bed and a couch). The rest were given to me by my family. I have 3 computers, but 2 were given to me and the one I use I built in 2001 for college (its been upgraded here and there). Really most of the stuff I own was gifted. My car was. Almost all of my clothes (the only clothes I buy are from thrift stores; most everything else that is nice is still from high school or Christmas gifts).

If I don't find a decent job before the ex kicks me out, I'm going to be living with my grandparents. Got any room at your place? Perhaps I can cook (I make a dynamite spicy spaghetti) and clean for room and board? :-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I do have a spare room... :)

It's a totally trashed with junk that I am too lazy to find a place for.

My husband is from Mentor. He gets homesick for Ohio because Colorado is so dry. But we have the Rocky Mountains which are pretty awesome, even with the pine beetle infestation.

I know a lot of folks with roommates and such, including newlyweds. Such is life in America.

I would like to see the price of housing go way down so it's affordable, gross national product be damned.

It is the economy, stupid.

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+5

good comments

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