Thursday Open Thread
What's happening in the political world today? I don't really see too many political stories on the front pages. Might be the calm before the storm - after the conventions.
Hope you are having a good Thursday!
Submitted by Ender on Thu, 2008-08-14 10:30
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I had a dream last night
Where I came to Obama's Chicago home - seemed like it was before he started running for prez as there was no security. It was at night too. Anyways, he was quite nice and helpful and we had a conversation. I don't remember much about it at all, except for a good feeling about it.
It wasn't a nightmare :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Awesome
Looks like the Democrats finally got their orbital mind-control laser online. :)
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
heh yeah I was very surprised
at this, almost definitely induced, craziness :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Similar dream
Two nights ago, I dreamed I met Ron Paul at my high school. He was happy to see that I checked his book out from the library (which I did check it out from my local library).
That's about all I can recall.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Hope lives another day :-)
Fascinating dream.
Thanks for sharing the 'good vibes'.
It is the economy, stupid.
Wake up brother, wake up....
...if you wake up now you won't have to get to the part where he does become POTUS and it does turn into a nightmare!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
How much did the US set Georgia up to fail wrt Russia?
From what has been published over the last several days there are a couple of things that have stood out.
It seems that the bush43 Administration did court the Georgian government. It looks like they did this because they want the oil pipeline being built through Georgia and they entertained the notion of placing NATO Missle Sites in Georgia.
Georgian government officials have stated that the Administration made verbal agreements and commitments regarding coming to the aid of Georgia militarily that the bush43 Administration now says:
1) they never said any such thing
or
2) we discussed security but they must have misunderstood what we told them.
I'm more inclined to believe 2 rather than 1. I feel this is so because the administration's foreign policy is still run by Cheney's cowboys. They like to talk big. They are firm believers in acting like foreign policy is poker. It isn't a big poker game. If they are bluffing in our names, they are really lying in all our names. And that is why I believe 2, it makes both 2 & 1 true. This Administration loves them some big lies. To them it's nothing.
So, Russia sees (as does the whole world) that the US is maxed out militarily and can't do anything, literally, in it's neck of the woods. Georgia's leaders get a wild hair up their ass (maybe because they actually hoped and believed what bush43 told them was true) and invade S. Ossetia only to be crushed by the all too happy Russians. The Russians get a multifer on the deal too. They get to carve up Georgia whom they despise. They get to parade to the world that they are still a power to be reconned with. They get to rub America's face in the mud to a world audience (which let's face it, after 7 years of this Administration, much of the world likes to see).
This all just reinforces the idea that this Administration is the most incompetent bunch of adults/spoiled rotten children that this nation has ever seen. I am totally disgusted by their having killed the American good name.
Georgia was being pushed into a corner...
or Georgia was being baited by Russia and Saakashvili bit down hard, while betting on the US step in [seemingly].
More or less "2)"
Russia has been toying around with their "near abroad" since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
It appears that Saakashvili grew tired of Russia
exerting its influencemanipulating the region and decided fulfill his campaign promises and hope the US would end up having his back.It makes little sense for Georgia to attack a territory occupied by a bunch of Russian "peace keepers."
Russia's actions were forcing Georgia to sit by and have Russia [implicitly threaten and] meddle in Georgia's affairs or, in a roundabout way [less sinister than the Nazi way] Russia would find a way to defend "its" people.
But thats just my 2 cents, some people seem to think Saakashvili plays Russian Roulette with 6 bullets just so McCain can win.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
After all the hue and cry
about Mr. Wonderful posing as President by drawing large crowds abroad, it does seem a little uppity of McCain to be taking charge in Georgia, as if he was already President.
Even going so far as to send his campaign staff to work a deal?!?! Is McCain campaigning in Georgia?
After all isn't Bush still the Commander in Cheif?
It is the economy, stupid.
I think Scheer is right on set up but wrong in his conclusion.
I don't see Mom & Pop Americans as thinking that Russia is an enemy of ours nor do I see them have some need to attach themselves to some foreign government that does stupid stuff.
With that in mind, and with Americans being very aware that both dubya & Darth & McCain & Co seem to want to attach the US to a war over there, it's not playing out as a positive in Americans eyes. From what I see in the papers I read, they think the whole thing is amateurish & over-reaching on both the US & Georgia's part and now the US Administration is trying to save face.
I'm surprised you're using the SF Chronicle link. Do you live in the Bay Area?
It was linked on TMR n/t
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Ohioan
Brutus and I went to high school together.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Why do you believe that Georgia...
....was the aggressor.
I would wait and see. Nothing, absolutely nothing Russia has claimed has proven true thus far in this deal, so why believe that?
It amazed me how everyone just jumped on the Russian bandwagon in terms of what they claimed happened.
Saakashvili claims otherwise.
It is clear this was a mission that would have required a great deal of planning, not a quick response to a moments notice.
Remember, these are the Russians we're talking about here, I mean come on now?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Why do I believe in Gravity?
Saakashvili seems to be every bit the charlatan as the Russians in their claims of them being 100% in the right.
I posted elsewhere the link of Israel smelling something fishy coming from Georgia months ago. Russia is right next door they smelled it to.
As far as Russia provoking a Georgian attack, its likely just a self fulfilling prophecy that led to Russia nudging Georgia in that direction.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Wow, gravity, you are that certain, huh? n/t
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Propaganda from all sides
Propaganda from all sides
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Propaganda from all sides
Propaganda from all sides
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Most certainly...
...even more reason we really can not be sure of much at this juncture?
We can be relatively sure the Russians planned this ahead of time, and their alleged response was in no way compensatory with the supposed actions on the part of the Georgians. Furthermore the Russians have lied about everything they have stated past that point that we do know of.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Operation Canned Goods
Once again, that most likely may be the case. But its not like it was some super secret that Georgia was building up it's military infrastructure and the Georgian President ran on a platform of "uniting" the break away regions with the rest of Georgia. If Russia did plan this, they just needed to slightly smudge Saakashvili's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Built up there military?
The only kind of military they had was a tactical force specifically designed to fight in Iraq, they had little or no forces of the sort you would fight a ground war with, artillery, etc.
If fact they were very cautious not to develop those sorts of capabilities just to APPEASE the Russians. A lot of good that did them, huh?
You can't negotiate with terrorists, of which Russia is the biggest in the world.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
You have a very "liberal" defenition of "terrorism" n/t
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
I think the Georgians would disagree with you...
...one day you're sitting in your house watching TV, the next drunk soldiers roll through it, looting, pillaging, blowing up buildings, demolishing the infrastructure of your country...
You tell me?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
One day Russia is sending more "peacekeepers" to South Ossetia..
the next minute Saakashvili is sending troops to take South Ossetia.
With that definition of "terrorist", the US used terror to get the Mexicans to sell the US some land
and by sending Sherman marching through the South.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Well yes I suppose...
But, ...we are talking the twenty first century here.
Sherman definately terrorized the south, the Mexican American War...?
And today Georgia, the US, and the free world, aside from the physical devastation, essentially won
!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
What you're saying rings true, kindness.
However, one must bear in mind that what many, if not most Americans, of all political persuasions is that the United States of America lost the respect of the rest of the world roughly half a century ago, around World War II, and hasn't regained it. If U. S. history is any indication, one doesn't have to like what the Bush/Cheney Administration is doing to realize that, unfortunately, these past eight years were a long time coming.
LOL, please expand on this theory?
Why/how did we lose the respect of the rest of the world right after WW2?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
If you've no sense of humor today
Don't read this
Yes, it's Town Hall, but it's funny. Skewed for McCain a bit too. But still funny in wry sort of way.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
Rovian style anti-McCain ad
Funny ---painfully true for Republicans anti McCain Ad
on Andrew Sullivan's blog.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/if-rove-wer...
"L"... n/t
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Rovian?
What's Rovian about it?
Sic semper tyrannis
The whole Rovian label is a misnomer...
...Karl Rove was the architect of the Bush administration, but he was not the one responsible for the ads liberals have gleaned the term Rovian for.
He is a political genius, it just so happens he is on the other side, so now they want to demonize him.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
IMHO
"Rovian" includes the tactic of attacking an opponent by characterizing what is in fact a strength to be a weakness. This is certainly an effective technique, hence the "genius" behind it. Evil genius, perhaps, but certainly genius. ;)
So the attacks on Obama for his celebrity ("Oh my gosh! He's well-liked! What a horrible trait to have in a president!") or for his unusual background ("He's actually encountered other cultures first-hand. The horror!") are "Rovian."
I guess the other connotation is that they often take the form of personal, mean-spirited attacks, as in the spreading of the mistruths about McCain's adopted daughter during the 2000 campaign. Turning a strength - he's adopted a minority child, that shows a character trait that most people would admire - into a weakness, through lies in this case. (I don't know if Rove himself was personally responsible for that or not, btw.)
So the linked YouTube is kinda Rovian, in that it takes a strength - the war hero/POW story - and attempts to turn it into a weakness. It's not really genius, though, because it is not done very well.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
OK, but it is curious...
that you seee his celebrity as just a silly attack on his popularity.
I see that as an odd thing, because anyone can see there is no substance
? Why is he so popular? Certainly not for his views, those have all changed 
.
It's just this idea of something people are infatuated with. That was the meaning of the ad.
And then you see his background as a wonderful example of diversity and culture.
I see the dizzing array of skelotons that have tumbled out of his closet as a big concern, from his unbelievable 20 year relationship with a bigoted racist like J. Wright, to his unwillingness to be honest about his background and intentions
.
So I would not say those ads, that Rove is not responsible for, are not Rovian, but instead simply speak to those that have yet to be swept of their feet by Obama's empty suit or good looks.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Substance
What you mean is that "anyone who hasn't bothered to look for themselves" can see there is no substance. Obama's plans
for how his administration would act on pretty much all the major issues are as detailed or more so than anything that McCain has put forth 
.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
The latest version is up already? LOL! ;-) n/t
Thats a lot of work for the campaign staffers, I bet even they wish he would make up his mind.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
It's called politics
McCain has his own list
. It's not a differentiator.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Come now...
That list you posted is a junk list, not a legitimate rendering of fact. Just when I'm warming up to you, you post garbage.
Not that JM has changed position, and I'd be happy to address that too, but please.
For instance; Iraq, Guns, Abortion, etc they are dealing in semantics, not truth.
The list I posted I spent time to find as it lists facts, like them or not, I found them to be an admirable pursuit for truth.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
As far as I'm concerned
...they are both junk lists. I honestly didn't bother to read either in much detail. I just took a somewhat closer look at the Obama list, and as I suspected, many of them involve voting for or against some bill, with it's thousands of provisions and details, and using that as evidence for or against a position. Sorry, but it's commonplace for legislators to vote for a bill that has some parts they think are imperfect, in the interests of moving the larger issue forward, and it is also common to vote against a bill that they would otherwise vote for, if not for one provision that is unacceptable. I would say that several on this list are also semantics (nuclear power, welfare reform, diplomacy with Iran, gay marriage, etc.), so where does that leave us?
My point is that the whole flip flop charge is pretty silly to begin with, on either side.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Facts do have a bias
As I mentioned earlier. I repeat this only because you are again making my point with your 'junk list' comment, that facts are irrelevant.
It is the economy, stupid.
In order to support Obama...
...I suppose you would have to adopt that absurd position!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman