What's the difference...

between a precipitous withdrawal of US combat forces from Iraq that would plunge the region into chaos and ignite a bloody civil war, and the successful completion of a mission to restore stability to Iraq and leave it a free and independent nation?

Obama's dangerous plan of surrendering to al Qaeda:

Military experts believe we can safely redeploy combat brigades from Iraq at a pace of 1 to 2 brigades a month that would remove them in 16 months. That would be the summer of 2010 – more than 7 years after the war began.

Under the Obama plan, a residual force will remain in Iraq and in the region to conduct targeted counter-terrorism missions against al Qaeda in Iraq and to protect American diplomatic and civilian personnel.

Contrast with this responsible method of bringing the Iraqi war to a victorious close:

Two Iraqi officials say the U.S. and Iraq are close to a deal under which all American combat troops would leave by October 2010 with remaining U.S. forces gone about three years later.

A U.S. official in Washington acknowledges progress has been made on the timelines for a U.S. departure but offered no firm date. Another U.S. official strongly suggested the 2010 date may be too ambitious.

Lemme see, by October 2010, how does that compare to in 16 months from 20 January 2009?

So one answer to the question appears to be four-five months.

Equal credit is allotted for the alternative and alliterative answer (heh): the political party of the politician proposing the plan.

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Well, excellent question...

....but you should check his website to see his latest version of his position on Iraq , or better yet you could go to John mcCains website and predict where he'll end up! LOL!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Thanks for the link, but

I don't have audio at work, so I'll have to postpone my enjoyment for a while...

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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At least you ignored

the supreme irony of Rice negotiating a, erm, timetable at all. I suppose this administration has finally figured out that it would be somewhat difficult to sneak all the soldiers out without folks noticing.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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It's silly that you...

..would imply that they would ever do anything else.

Everyone knew when the time was right, get that part, when the time was RIGHT, we would schedule the redeployment of the troops. Duh?

But to say in 2006 we should pull out the troops, give a time line of 16 months, then say we will be out by March 2008, is a rookie, dangerous, nonsensical, thing to do!

The surge worked, we won the war in Iraq, and we will win the war in Afghanistan and the Pakistan border area too, if Barack Obama stays out of it

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Hello Red-Wing

My apologies for catching you in my tongue-in-cheek comment, and welcome to the site. Nice to have more conservatives on board.

I've argued the reasonable road here before about withdrawing from Iraq ;-) Well, I think it was reasonable anyway.

My point is more to poke fun at the partisanship that led many people to treat "timeline" and "supporting the enemy" as synonymous phrases during the most heated parts of the last few years. I think both sides are just too damn tired to care much about it any more.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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Hello to you, and thanks for the welcome!

n/t

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Timetables are bad!

Interesting quote from GWB in the linked article in the linked dKos diary (from May 2007, emphasis added)

President Bush will meet with Republican and Democratic congressional leaders at the White House today after vetoing a war funding bill Tuesday evening because it set “a rigid and artificial deadline” for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq.

“It makes no sense to tell the enemy when you plan to start withdrawing,” Bush said. “All the terrorists would have to do is mark their calendars and gather their strength and begin plotting how to overthrow the government and take control of the country of Iraq.”

“Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure, and that would be irresponsible,” he said.

Wonder if the terrorists are marking 2010 on their calendars? (removes tongue from cheek)

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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Well, they are defeated now in Iraq...

...I for one agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly!

Point taken though... ;-)

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Timetables or otherwise

You can't outlast insurgents in their own country. They'll just wait until one day after you leave whether or not you publish the date in the papers. Unless we're planning to stay there indefinitely, we can't outlast them.

Insurgents live there. They can wait. They have the time.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Oh please...

The "insurgents" are not, for the most part, Iraqi.

The good people of Iraq, many of which have recently been trained and armed, vastly out number the terrorists.

And a change of sediment, at least in terms that there is a renewal of the culture in Iraq and that renewal has replaced oppression and fear, once the dominant quality people experienced.

You are correct, we must continue to press ahead in the prosecution of this effort, and drive the radical elements out of Afghanistan, and likely the barren border lands of Pakistan.

PS - We have built the largest US foreign Service Mission on earth in Baghdad, so take that for what its worth.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Evidence?

The "insurgents" are not, for the most part, Iraqi.

I'll wait. I've got time, too. :-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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So where are we... Ive lost you once or twice...

When I tried to come to a point we both could feel ok about.

So whats your point here?

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Insurgents are not by dfinition domestic...

"a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent"

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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What dictionary do you

What dictionary do you use?????

I see you changed the wording before I replied...

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I didn't change anything? What?

Main Entry: 1in·sur·gent
Pronunciation: \-jənt\
Function: noun
Date: 1765
1: a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government

We "named" the Terrorists "insurgents"...ok.

Brutus, you are a opportunist if I've ever seen one!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Unintentional Red Herring?

paraphrasing

Stinerman: An invading country cannot outlast domestic insurgents. Insurgents live there in Iraq
Red_Wing: Most of the insurgents are foreigners
Stinerman: Do you have any evidence to back up your claim
Red_Wing: Insurgents don't have to be domestic by definition

Instead of looking to find out where most of the "insurgents" are from, the discussion is turned into a semantics debate.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Then i'll rephrase

If insurgents cannot "for the most part" be non-Iraqi and also be exclusively foreigners. Pick a definition.

Princeton has the general definition I use:

# a person who takes part in an armed rebellion against the constituted authority (especially in the hope of improving conditions)
# in opposition to a civil authority or government
# guerrilla: a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment

So I'll rephrase my question for clarity. Are the people who are fighting against our soldiers and the Iraqi soldiers a majority of foreigners (non-Iraqi citizens) or domestic (Iraqi citizens)? Please support your answer.

I honestly don't know the answer to the question, but I've seen little evidence that most of the insurgents are foreigners.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Getting past the "semantics"

..and to the issue at hand:

- I think the OP (stinerman I think) has a good point. We really don't know if the insurgents have been "beaten," or if they decided to retreat and wait until we "win and leave." It's not that hard to imagine--just attack less and less, giving the impression of success, while you re-group, recruit, replace and re-organize.

Then as American forces lose interest and leave, you pounce. something similar happened in Afghanistan, and in Iraq we seem to be killing the AQI #2 guy every month. Why won't this guy stay dead? ;-)

It's telling that every week Iraqis are calling for a timeline for withdrawal and the Bush Administration is playing semantics games saying we want a time "horizon" which is essentially the same thing except horizons are never reached.

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Still waiting for a defintion

I've still never gotten an unambiguous definition of "victory" re Iraq. I've got an idea. Let's just call whatever we do "victory", that way we'll have won.

Hell, I still don't know why we went there in the first place. Talk about mission creep...

I'll also take the time to mention that militaries are not the correct tool to use against terrorists/insurgents or any other non-regulars. The correct tool to use is, wait for it, police.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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This works for me.

Main Entry:
vic·to·ry Listen to the pronunciation of victory
Pronunciation:
\ˈvik-t(ə-)rē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural vic·to·ries
Etymology:
Middle English victorie, from Anglo-French, from Latin victoria, from victor
Date:
14th century

1 : the overcoming of an enemy or antagonist

2 : achievement of mastery or success in a struggle or endeavor against odds or difficulties

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


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Viking Quest

I've got an idea. Let's just call whatever we do "victory", that way we'll have won.

Sounds like a plan to me

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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