A Wonderful Thought Experiment

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change in our quality of government

I suspect that there is an extremely high probability that a person who believes that our quality of government was better in the 19th century than today is a white heterosexual male.

Well, when the driving force is capitalism, what other outcome could you possibly expect? Not a whole lot of money to be made in improving government institutions, is there?

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We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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A century of disaster

I suspect that there is an extremely high probability that a person who believes that our quality of government was better in the 19th century than today is a white heterosexual male.

Looking back on the 20th century as an everything-but-technology disaster gives that away. Things like women's suffrage, the civil rights movement (an end to anti-miscegenation and anti-sodomy laws) etc all part of that horrible disaster.
(Though I expect this is more focussed on certain parties' hatred of income tax and the New deal)

The real oddness is ignoring the pretty massive impact that the government has had on technology (Landing on the moon? ARPANET?)

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Poor countries have poor government

I have no problem with the notion that we are benefiting greatly from 100 years of investment in technology and machinery, but I don't know where anyone gets the idea that our old governmental/social system (or Africa's?!) is any better than the modern western egalitarianism.

 First, letting aside Spritiual Lefty's point about the low welfeare of women and minorities, we also should note the restrictions placed on those populations had substantial economic costs by limiting the development and application of human potential.

Second, corruption was pretty rampant in America  around 1900 -- patronage was the norm.

I'm not even going to address the absurd idea that wealth redistribution in Africa would decrease appropriate incentives--I assume he only wanted to point out that their total wealth is so low that it wouldn't make much of a difference.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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the thought experiment

Okay, so I just scanned that navel-gazing ramble over at Unqualified Reservations, and it seems to be based on the premise that modern America is in decay...and the only evidence for this is a USA Today story about how slow we have been to rebuild favicon the World Trade Centers and New Orleans. Fortunately, the USA Today article provides a pretty good case for why this "failure" is not a sign of decay. I thought the most obvious of these arguments was the fact that we had basically abandoned those two locales (especially New Orleans) before the disasters. The heart of our society (and it's elite members) had moved elsewhere, and the only reason we still used those two locales is because we had already built useful stuff there.

Once that stuff was destroyed, there was no reason to rebuild it there...we have plenty of other places to build things. The world changes --it would be foolish to tie ourselves to yesterday's investments.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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You seem to know very little about New Orleans

But I guess because USA Today says New Orleans is worthless it must be true.

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qui tacet consentire

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who said it was worthless?

I only made an observation about how the dominant institutions in our society had treated New Orleans (and many other cities) for decades -- wealthy people had left the city: population and economic growth had moved elsewhere.

 

Worth is in the eye of the beholder. My only comment about "worth" was simply pointing out that we don't necessarily have to rebuild everything that has been destroyed.

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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So....what you're saying is:

"don't bother to rebuild the areas (mainly the poorer, non-white areas) of New Orleans that were hardest hit by Katrina", but just simply get rid of them and make it a city only for the extremely wealthy? How fair is that? Not at all, imho.

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out of context

You guys have forgotten the context of what I wrote, and consequently are really over-interpreted it. I was not making an argument for or against any rebuilding project in New Orleans. I was only pointing out that the rebuilding effort in NO cannot be fairly compared to previous rebuilding efforts if you are trying to measure changes in our national economic vitality or political determination. 

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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hehehe

You guys have forgotten the context of what I wrote, and consequently are really over-interpreted it.

But that's the backbone of political blogging!

;)

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If I could take back these words...

Once that stuff was destroyed, there was no reason to rebuild it
there...we have plenty of other places to build things. The world
changes --it would be foolish to tie ourselves to yesterday's
investments.

 Maybe if I had spent an extra 10 minutes thinking of how to phrase this, I would have avoided 10 minutes of clarifying with extra comments!

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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Yes, Adam

I assume he only wanted to point out that their total wealth is so low that it wouldn't make much of a difference.

That's exactly what Caplan was saying.

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actually, Caplan says a lot more than that

According to your paraphrase:

 And going by the quotes you included, he repeatedly harps on the idea that income equality will destroy economic growth. On their own, his quotes suggest that he is just trying to keep the conversation focused on a particular issue, but when it is placed in the context of this larger discussion of "our modern system of massive redistribution" his quote amounts to a repeated, strong assertion that the Western focus on income equality is as bad, if not worse than the "average" African system--if we are only interested in economic growth.

Given that most of the great fortunes of Africa are the result of theft and corruption (not hard work and wise risk-taking), the above assertion is very hard to swallow.

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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No, Adam

I paraphrased him there and when he says that, he was talking about effects on incentives in total production.

Remember your line about over-interpreting and context?...

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it's not what he said, it's what you said he said

It's kinda hard to keep the "context" clear when we have three or four people's ideas thrown together.

Anyway, here is the "context" for this particular blog entry:

  1. Our high standard of living is due to accumulated capital (first paragraph)
  2. We are destroying this capital with our emphasis on assuring a nice standard of living for even the poorest people in our society (every paragraph after the first)
__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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Not exactly,

my intro before getting to the thought experiment was just a preface about a general idea of what wealth is and where it comes from and where it doesn't come from. By using points like Caplan's, it becomes a little less ambiguous when we look at poor nations like in Africa and our nation in the 19th century.

BTW, I would dispute that the second point you mention there is really part of the context. I think it really just says that a nice standard of living in true terms is achieved through productive practices and not redistribution.

And I think the thought experiment makes this clear. When making a crude choice between our modern government/19th century economy and our 19th century government/modern economy, we choose the later because we know that we didn't get to this point because of our modern government and all of its power and hubris isn't going to make our 19th century economy work better...at all. But we know that life economically would still be fine with a 19th century government.

SO basically, when you put your money where your mouth is, things become quite clear....as does the fact that modern government is not where our standard of living comes from....nor could it make it so from 19th century economy.

It simply jolts perspective into a clearer position that most truly don't realize or see on daily basis.

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Good government

is where our standard of living comes from. Good government means resources managed well and fairly, without fear of chaos and criminal exploitation.

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It is the economy, stupid.

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yes. Good government

"without fear of chaos and criminal exploitation"

This is another way of saying law and order to protect individual rights...both civil and economic. But this goes hand in hand free enterprise and always has. It also governs the firstt part of your post in terms of real meaning.

For it's worth, this was the essential and major role of 19th century government in terms of economic policy. Insofar as it worked well...because at times it did not.,.and it mostly did work well, it enabled a free society to create its standard of living. So, this observation is perfectly consistent with choosing a 19th century government with a modern economy.

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wealth redistribution would make a huge difference

In the country with the highest Gini coefficient, Nambia, the poorest 10% of the population accounts for 0.5% of the consumption.

Under Caplan's "perfect income equality", their consumption levels would increase 20x. That's a honking difference. Even in countries with intermediate Gini coefficients, there would be a substantial increase in income for the poorest 10%: 4x for the EU, 5x for the USA. 

Just matching Nambia's income distribution to the USA would mean a 4x increase in income for the poorest people.

Those values are large in themselves, but how do they compare to what would happen if Nambia brought their mean GDP (per capita) up to American levels -- it would increase from $5,000 to $45,000 -- a 9x increse...their income would still need to double to match what their poorest members could have today if national income were evenly distributed.

For other countries, the situation varies. Below several are listed, with Name, Per Capita GDP x$1000, and the share of GDP going to the bottom 10% (all data from the CIA world factbook):

Venezuela, 12, 0.7%

Uganda, 0.9, 2.3%

Bolivia 4, 0.3%

Brazil 10, 0.9%

Cameroon 2, 2.3%

Chile 14, 1.4%

China 5.3, 1.6%

The Gambia, 1.3, 1.8%

Malawi, 0.8, 2.9%

The point is, that the impact of income redistribution varies country by country--and in several cases it could have a greater impact for many people than even a century of strong economic growth.

Which brings us back to the big issue here: why are we treating economic equality and economic growth incompatible? Many arguments for economic equality focus on its role in fostering social stability--a precondition for strong growth. Likewise, there is often an empahsis on the high-value personal investment opportunities that are available to the poorest people (e.g. buying healthcare, nutrition, and shelter).

It would be nice if we could just declare "peace" in the wealth redistribution wars, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Even if a  "regular Joe" can't gain much (personally) by arguing for greater economic equality, it's well established that "tycoon Andrew" can gain a whole lot if he can steal just a few dollars from each of his fellow citizens. Left unchecked, this redistribution of wealth upewards can quickly impoverish many people--regardless of how hard they work or how quickly the economy grows.

Footnote: This entire discussion is limited by the failure to consider that economic equality has benefits outside of just how many goods/services we can buy. It also seems to ignore the fact that people tend to live in communities with others of a similar income level, and we do benefit from increases in community wealth, not just individual wealth.

 

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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well, Adam

(and btw, I'm a little surprised to see this coming from you)

Under Caplan's "perfect income equality", their consumption levels would increase 20x. That's a honking difference.

He said that even if you take all of it and redistribute evenly, with no account for effects on incentives (meaning it's unrealistic since production would change under such a scheme) that they would still be "incredibly poor". Besides, I'm not even sure where you get those numbers from.

Which brings us back to the big issue here: why are we treating economic equality and economic growth incompatible?

Personally, I'm not treating them that way. But I would stand behind the statement that total redistribution of all income would not lead to growth. You destroy incentives. But other than that, in real world scenarios, I don't really consider those two factors as twin objectives. Overall growth is far more important than equality of income. Besides, equality of income is impossible to achieve...so why even bother worrying about it?

As for your footnote, that may be the case but I really don't see how you can do anything about that.

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numbers from CAI factbook

He said that even if you take all of it and redistribute evenly, with
no account for effects on incentives (meaning it's unrealistic since
production would change under such a scheme) that they would still be
"incredibly poor". Besides, I'm not even sure where you get those
numbers from.

The numbers are from the CAI factbook.

"Incredibly poor" needs to be put in some sort of context. Since this whole thing seems to be dismissive of the idea of wealth redistribution, the first context would be to compare it their current standard of living. If this redistribution scheme only increased their standard of living to 1.2 or 1.3x their current level, I could agree that they were "still incredibly poor" (though I'm sure they would appreciate that 20% increse in income). However, a 20x increase in income is mind-boggling: it would radically change their lives. 

The other way to put it in context would be to propose some alternative way of increasing their wealth. From the way this thought experiment is framed, the pretty clear alternative is general economic growth -- a 20x increase in GDP would take about 60 years at 5% annual growth...at which point Nabia's bottom 10% would probably have income comparable about 1/4 of the bottom 10% in the USA today-- call that "incredibly poor" or not?

If you aren't accepting these comparisons, it sounds like the only lesson to be learned from this thought experiment is "gee, some people in this world are really damn poor"

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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think ahead, Adam

I could agree that they were "still incredibly poor" (though I'm sure they would appreciate that 20% increse in income). However, a 20x increase in income is mind-boggling: it would radically change their lives.

And then what? By that, I mean that this is all a cycle. It doesn't stop after one step. How long does this radical change last? You've taken wealth generated one way and divide it evenly. OK. Now how is this new incentive structure supposed to continue producing after one round?

This is part of what I was referring to about draining accumulated social capital where the true nature of what is real isn't apparent until the new rules run their course and produce their own results.

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It doesn't have to be radical

I don't think anyone here is seriously calling for complete wealth redistribution, so that the paperboy has the same income as the CEO of Exxon. So your argument that such a radical step will destroy incentive is not really relevant. By the same token, I don't think you are saying that even the slightest amount of wealth redistribution is going to destroy the economy. It's more a question of how much is too much, and how much is not enough. Personally, I am in the camp of "we're not doing enough," as I am sure you know by now! I am at the very least quite sure that we could be doing more without coming anywhere near the point of destroying incentive.

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We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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true SL

but I never said it was realistic...in fact I even said it was unrealistic. But Adam was pushing the hypothetical and disputing so I responded in kind.

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farwell, cruel blog

and btw, I'm a little surprised to see this coming from you)

 Well, I am flattered by the great respect you show for scientists...and likewise, I have great respect for entrepreneurs.

Anyway, I think what gets me riled up here is the dismissive attitude towards concerns about economic inequality. We probably agree that economic inequality is a rather superficial issue in itself; however, I suspect we differ in that I think it is a great entry point for discussion of the underlying issues that have produced that inequality --which often involve rank injustices and massive economic waste.

 There is a terrible tendency among libertarians to dismiss the concerns
of others, rather than delving deeper into identifying how the state contributes to the problem that they are concerned with.

Anyway, I'm going to shut up now. In the future, I'll try to stay away from commenting on these types of blog entries since the conversations seem to go nowhere...I'll just accept that they are meant for others, not for me.

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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Kudos to you adam

Your statements are fair and needed. I couldn't agree more with you on a certain coldness that some corners have about economic inequality, while acknowledging that poverty will never be completely eliminated, nor do I think it should be.

There is nothing wrong with being poor, as long as you can provide for your family. Poverty is not a fricking crime. It doesn't mean you are lazy and worthless.

There is human dignity and self worth involved in labor, and work that allows a man to feed is family. Those that have no way of making it, turn to radical acts out of pure desparation and a sense of hopelessness.

I wish you would write more about how this income inequality and how and if the state or the IMF or the WTO enables such conditions intentionally or by accident is a great entry point for discussion.

You can argue about why is it good to destroy rice farms in China, so that these people with proud traditions and heritage can move to the city and work in a factory as a faceless laborers in bad working conditions, when the world is suffering from a shortage of rice?

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It is the economy, stupid.

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Well, lets explore that, Adam

, I suspect we differ in that I think it is a great entry point for discussion of the underlying issues that have produced that inequality --which often involve rank injustices and massive economic waste

Not really. There are many ways to interpret the causes of those outcomes....many of which, IMO, are inadvertent consequences of good intentions compounded over time.

I dismiss no concerns in general. I'm actually very concerned. Hence, my interest. But if I feel that one particular point, ie general income inequality, is a "superficial concern", as you yourself put it, well, then, that's how I feel about it. What can I say? I remain unconvinced of its significance in a pragmatic sense. The problem there is that most people I encounter who DO have concerns about inequality have nothing constructive to say as to WHY it's a problem...or more precisely, WHY it should take priority over or take away from the work on absolute and sustained improvements. For thoughtless criticizers, t's simply a means to bash the opposite of what they think they believe...and more sadly...to label the opposite of what they think they believe as the status quo evil that has brought about what is wrong.

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make that a "half century of solid growth"

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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