The Audacity of Arrogance

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

I recommend Ralph Nader as well n/t

__________________________

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

Heh

This year the most likely potential spoiler is on your side of the fence.

Hopefully he'll pick off a little McCain support.

__________________________

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

unlikely :)

In the end, libertarian candidates, even mildly well known (regionally in this case), don't attract any real (>1%) support.

__________________________

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Polls show Barr getting 6% in his home state of Georgia....

..That could be anough to flip a red state to blue.... especially if the AA community in Atlanta turns out in huge numbers.

__________________________

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

………… parent

but in the end

he'll be lucky to get 1% even in GA... Electoral history does not favor him.

__________________________

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

I voted Nader in 2000

I had hoped he could break the 5% threshold to get federal support but he really didn't get close. In 2004 his support was much smaller (no doubt in part due to ire from some liberals that argue he caused Gore's loss).

I just don't see Nader making much of a difference going forward (although I do sincerely thank him for the great good he has accomplished in his life).

All in all I think the plutocratic culture of America is too deeply embedded to fix without essentially starting over.

__________________________

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Outside of members of the Bush administration....

...no American citizen is more responsible for the 4600+ military deaths in Iraq than Ralph Nader.

If Nader doesn't run, Gore wins Florida easily (Nader got 10s of thousands of voters in a state Bush won by 500). Gore always wins NH easily without Nader in the race.

The second choice for the overwhelming majority of Nader voters was Gore, according to exit polls.

Ralph Nader begat the Bush Administration. The Bush Administration is responsible for the Iraqi war.

Ralph Nader has blood on his hands.

__________________________

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

………… parent

As I was saying... (nt)

__________________________

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

sure, blame Nader for your own impotence

...no American citizen is more responsible for the 4600+ military deaths in Iraq than Ralph Nader.

If the qualification is that they helped Bush get elected, how about you first look at the ~50% of American voters who voted for Bush? How about all the people who contributed to his campaign?

Anyway, I didn't hear Gore proposing any "exit strategy" for our siege of Iraq. What did you want us to do--just maintain the embargo until every Iraqi had died of starvation and poor sanitation?

Nader's big "sin" is that he didn't fall in line with your plan. You sound like Bush: "either you're with us or you're against us".

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

………… parent

these calculations are BS

By the flow of this argument, it seems that the author thinks that 80% of Americans impoverished or on the verge of poverty. He discounts the possibility that there is a sizable chunk of the population that isn't quite "affluent" (with $40,000 cars), but is living pretty comfortably...even if it is less comfortably than last year.

It would be silly for them to flip out over a economic downturn, which we have every reason to believe will be temporary, and most of them will weather just fine. In five years, most of us will be on the upswing again.

For some perspective, I think about 60% of American homes have cable -- which is a frivolous expense of about $30 per month. We have along way to go until we are really hurting...but we might not be able to afford those $5 lattes at Starbucks anymore!

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

…………

Well it does go on to give examples

of specific ways that some americans are drastically affected by income inequality. Considering how staggeringly wealthy a nation we are it really is criminal that anyone goes to bed hungry, any kids try to do without adequate school supplies, anyone goes without basic preventative medical care, and so on.

Is everyone in bad shape? Of course not. But our society as a whole is impacted.

__________________________

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

what's the solution?

It seems that the author is offering two possible solutions:

  1. Rebel
  2. Vote for Nader

Both of these are pretty pointless as strategies for change unless you can convince a large number of people to follow the same strategy...which is why it matters how many Americans are really feeling the pain.

I'm all for lodging a protest vote as a means of self-expression (which is all that voting is anyway), but this isn't a solution of any sort.

I think there is great value in making sure that Americans are aware of the suffering of their neighbors, and the risk that the associated economic/political troubles can knock on their own doors...but to a large extent, many Americans have the ability to make the necessary changes even with our current imperfect political system.

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

………… parent

Lots of potential solutions

but as you say the problem is getting the buy in from enough people to overcome inertia (and some solutions face more resistance than others, of course).

For my part I'm pretty well settled into a spectator mode. I have my own suspicions about what would be best but they aren;t popular, meanwhile the mass of humanity rushes towards what I believe is a cliff.

*shrug*

I can't dissuade or shift them. The human herd is moved by deep psycho-social trends, not individual action. So the options are to give myself an ulcer or kick back and witness. Maybe they'll surprise me.

__________________________

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

cause for optimism

I think there's plenty that can be done on the small scale (individual, voluntary group, and local government)--you won't save "society" but you'll save yourself and your neighbors and take some pressure off of the broader society. It's foolish to focus on strategies that only pay off when a massive group buys into them.

Along those lines, Buchananites will never vote for Nader. Even if they did ally, it would only produce chaos. When the "left" and the "right" join forces to overthrow the establishment, they turn on each other as soon as they are victorious, and one faction makes themselves into the new establishment--just as corrupt as the old (see the Iranian revolution for an example).

The point of all of this is that you need to establish real alternative institutions before dismantling the establishment. While humanity very well may nuke itself to oblivion, we also have the potential to create a paradise. I'm optimistic because I think this recession stings enough to get Americans to realize that propsperity doesn't "just happen", but it won't be bad enough to destroy our opportunity to build a better world.

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

………… parent

Point well taken, Tlaloc

This:

"I can't dissuade or shift them. The human herd is moved by deep psycho-social trends, not individual action. "

says it, in a nutshell. People, for the most part, aren't that strong psychologicall and emotionally, and are easily swayed by whatever present deep psycho-social trends exist at the time--they're mostly followers, inotherwords.

………… parent

Depeche Mode?

"Sheeple" are "Sheeple" so why is that we get along so awfully?

__________________________

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent