Friday Open Thread
I couldn't sleep so decided to do an open thread early. Now I can go to sleep, though I will offer a video in the first comment below. (Warning, the video is somewhat graphic and could be disturbing)
Submitted by Ender on Thu, 2008-03-27 23:16
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You decide - hate or truth
The long awaited short film by Geert Wilders. Includes some footage of the terror attacks.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
One could
pull shocking quotes out of the Bible (death for adultery and selling one's daughter into slavery), then show McVeigh, Phelps, Falwell, and Robertson to the same effect. Nothing new here. What it comes down to is literalism or interpretation.
If one is short on reason and highly impacted by pathos (the appeal to emotion), I suppose this video is persuasive.
If one can make the distinction between extremists (they are part of every religion to one extent or another) and the vast majority of moderate followers, and if one is not xenophobic, then this video is just garbage.
I fall among the latter. This video should find its deserved home at places like LGF instead of here.
Essentialism
is dangerous no matter who does it.
Joshua 6:15-19
qui tacet consentire
My two cents:
Religious fundamentalism has long been a problem throughout the world, and it's clearly on the increase. Like all religions, Islam has its more radical factions, which are pointed out on this video, but they don't represent all of the Islamic religion any more than the Rightwing Israeli Jewish settlers who claim West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem represent all Israeli Jews, or Judaism per se, or the more fundamentalist Christians represent all of Christianity. The trouble comes when the more radical factions of Islam and other religions are allowed to take center stage and are not reigned in by the majority. Then it becomes a problem, albeit a real serious one.
This is partly why a credible peace process (i. e. the two-state solution is best), is
imperative-- in fact, crucial. If the Palestinians become disenfranchised, angry, bitter or desperate enough, they could very well fall under the influence of the more radical factions in their flanks and radical Islam. Giving them their own independent state in West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem won't necessarily guarantee against that happening, but it will possibly enable the non-radical majority to rein in their extremists, hopefully.
If it bleeds it leads
The fringes of any religion tend to be the most vocal, therefore more media coverage is devoted to them, which makes those groups seem to be more popular and larger than they really are.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Long awaited by whom?
You could superimpose footage and multimedia of a century of european and american colonialism in the middle east, northern africa, and near east (after the collapse of the Ottoman empire) over bible passage and papal decrees. And that's exactly what they do.
Some of us actually paid attention in history class and it's always interesting to compare the treatment of jews under the ottoman empire as compared to treatment of jews under european christian governments during that 800 year time span.
the only thing important
is the actions of the followers of that religion. And the followers of that religion have been terrorizing the World for the last few decades. No one is arguing that Christians have done plenty of evil in the past, but it's not really applicable or pertinent as a threat.
Islam is unreformed and its followers are threatening Western Civilization through both terror and infiltration... RIGHT NOW - not centuries ago.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
State Democide and State Wars killed 300-400 million people in
the 20th century and you are going to somehow argue with a straight face that islamic asymmetric terrorism that has killed in the tens of thousands is an existential threat to Western Civilization.
The STATE is the existential threat to western civilization and individual liberty...
I can't argue about the STATE
But sometimes a more insidious way of attack, combining instilling terror in the population, settling among your enemies, winning sympathy from the Left of the Western World, combined with sheer numbers and wider array of deadly weapons can be much more effective in the long term than a direct assault ala WW2.
A billion human beings in an unreformed religion that says infidels should be destroyed and their countries overthrown is not something I sneer about.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
The terrorists win when you can't sleep at night
You will not be able to reform a religion of billions. This rhetoric only further radicalizes those with nothing to lose, who have lost everything..... pride, family, country, occupation.
I doubt if most of the billions in the 'unreformed religion' are after you, but if you keep telling them they have no rights to their land, their customs and assume their religion is evil they might be.
It is the economy, stupid.
Here's what You don't address. Bush43 is helping the extremist
Islam. The most conservative, the most barbaric and oppressive forms of Islam are ALL funded and promoted by the Saudi's. Osama & Al Queda - funded by the Saudi's. The Talibahn - funded by the Saudi's. The extemist Islamists in the Phillipines, Indonesia and Pakistan - funded by the Saudi's.
You talk to the locals in any of these countries....they don't like the version of Islam being pushed on them, but they are the only ones giving them assistance that they need. They are the only ones providing education for their children, so they take it and they don't bite the hand that's feeding them.
Ender you rail about some folk we all consider beyond the pale. We all think they are evil and certainly don't represent any of our beliefs. But you fail to connect that it is our President that has done everything in his power to make those very same groups that you object to more powerful than they were on their own. Between the price of oil skyrocketing and the PNAC propoganda ignoring that we are now our own worst enemies...I find your post suggesting that we are fighting these people appalling. We're helping them and shooting ourselves in both feet.
Take Iraq as an example. Right now we are supporting Maliki in his efforts to crush the Sadrists. Except it is exactly the Maliki faction that is beholden to the Iranians we are supporting, vs the Sadrists who are anti-Iranian Iraqi nationalists
(not to say I like the Sadrists either though).
I swear to god, I never thought I would live to see the day when Orwellian thought and action perversions would actually be the government that is in power. But that's what we have here and now & that's what you Ender are supporting.
Shame on you. You should really care more about America. You are putting a political group run by a bunch of idiots above the well being of America. Shame on you.
Calm down. The Iraqis are Muslims
Bush got a B.A. in History from an Ivy League school, Bush knows what he is doing.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
I just get tired of conservatives blaming liberals for this
problem. It isn't our fault. Most of us didn't support the invasion & occupation of Iraq.
Archie Bunker had a term that describes dubya, Darth and the NPAC crew:
Meatheads.
Unless I am mistaken, Archie used the term Meathead
in reference to someone who was a flaming liberal, right? So I don't think he would use it as you just did. ;)
Republican Maverick at Large
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Yea, he did. If the shoe fits though.....
And I don't mean to imply that this cadre is a bunch of liberals.
I do mean to imply this cadre is a bunch of Meatheads.
I'd have thought Archie Bunker was before your time....
The sad thing is, Bush made
The sad thing is, Bush made Iraq part of the war on The Base by bringing The Base to Iraq.
This was worse than making a Naval Base in the Philippines because the Cubans were in a simmering rebellion.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
we all know
that what Bush does, in coddling the Saudis, is due to our dependence on oil. We can't easily separate from them at this time. Get oil out of the equation and we can be done with the whole lot of them.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
That's just as incredible a claim
The state USED TO BE a threat to western civilization, but it certainly isn't now. Or are you trying to tell me that Holland is gearing up to start throwing Europeans in the meat grinder?
The threat to western civilization is probably China, although they seem to enjoy the finer points of free markets. I'll decline to speak to the liberty question as the state by definition constricts individual liberties.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Here's my question:
So what?
I don't mean that as I don't care about extremism and don't think we should attempt to deal with the extremists (Brendan does an excellent job of discussing fruitful strategies below--education and economic incentives), but 'so what' as far as even if I accept this argument (which I don't), what should we do now?
Do we start a genocide and rid ourselves of this 'scurge' or throw all Muslim immigrants out, or what? What is the purpose of this video besides to instill fear and hatred? What solutions do we have from there?
So what?
I think we should invade middle eastern countries ...
and spread democracy throughout the region! :)
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Democracy and Sharia Law
Democracy and Sharia Law aren't mutually exclusive.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
AFAIK ...
I never said that they were.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Spreading Democracy in the
Spreading Democracy in the Middle East very well could mean spreading Sharia Law and all that could entail.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
We tried
and succeeded
in some respects. But then we did not like the outcome, so we reconsidered 
.
:-)
what I would like to see
is more condemnation and awareness from the "free" Western governments. I want a hostile attitude towards accommodating their culture inside Western countries (instead of accommodating attitude present today). I want their culture condemned publicly as backwards and incompatible with freedom.
I want it taken for granted around the world that intolerant, dark ages religion will not be welcome as equal in the Western Civilization, supposedly based on rational thought and individual rights.
As far as I am concerned, respect should not be granted to everyone automatically.
Am I talking about genocide here? What's funny is that many of your fellow liberals attack conservatives for being pale versions of the irrational islamists, yet hypocritically support respecting and accommodating the religion and culture of the dark ages.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I agree, but let's do it from inside THEIR countries! :)
That way we can take the message right to the people! Power to the people! :)
Republican Maverick at Large
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hehe well I am not terribly opposed to that approach
however I do not think we have the right leadership for it.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Besides a few moneyed interests
including the guy smooching and holding hands in the picture, who is not condemning extremists? Who is respecting them?
We've condemned them. Now what?
this is why we need to get beyond oil
because the next step would be to ignore and isolate them until they are ready to join the 21st century.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I think both of those strategies
would be better than what we are doing now, but I believe there are better routes still (again, as Brendan mentioned).
Are you a homophobe, Specter?
Aparantly Bush isn't. He seems very secure in his manhood in these shots ... :)
Republican Maverick at Large
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I didn't say there was anything
wrong with it, :-) but I find it striking that one of the scenes in the film focuses on a known terrorist sympathizer and funder
, our good friends the Saudis. Bush definitely has a double-standard here.
Aren't we being a little "over the top", Ender?
I think you're overstating your case and looking the other way on some less than pleasant facts...as Ka1igu1a has pointed out.
do you think a presence of 1billion+
of unreformed Muslims in the 21st century world is a minor problem?
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
If I can get along with
If I can get along with people that think God just made Adam out of nearly nothing, but needed to go through the immaculate conception among other things just to make himself appear on Earth in the form of Jesus, then I can get along with most Muslims.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
it's really not believability of the theology that is the
problem. It's more of the emphasis and the actions taken in support of it.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I agree with that
Thats why I qualified it as "most muslims"
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Religion in general is the
Religion in general is the problem, but I'm getting off topic.
We have, essentially, two choices. Conquer the world and show the savages how real men run countries or let them figure out pluralism by themselves. I'll admit to harboring a belief in the first, but I fear that the cure will be worse than the disease.
Some of the genital mutilation done in Africa is beyond the pale, and anyone who engages in it should be wiped out like the vermin they are. Such acts have no place in civilized society. But giving power to decide who the desirables are and are not is most likely worse. If you gave it to me, I'd probably end up wiping out a sizable amount of the Jewish population unless they gave up the equally barbaric practice of male circumcision. I could make a similar argument with respect to body piercing as well.
To make an analogy, I think that all of us from time to time would wish that some people couldn't breed. It's a nice dream, but I know I don't want the state to be deciding who gets to have kids and who doesn't. There is no perfect solution to the problem. You just have to realize this one is a lost cause and move on.
The militant tendencies of Islam will work themselves out. It just takes time and patience. Simply leaving countries where we are not wanted will fix most of the problem. The odd religiously motivated suicide bomber will have to be dealt with as it happens. Sometimes the best you can get isn't good enough.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
how depressing
GAWD ,, how depressing is this ,,,, ignorance and religion , a perfect combination .... . Woudl it not be better to be spending trillions on education and at least trying to get the NEXT generation to see reason , I do believe young people are open to new ideas and are not all into kill kill kill ,,, if we only reach them .
I attended Nursing school in London with many Muslims and there was no hatred that I saw , they invited me to the Mosque ,, but I had other business in the PUB ,,,, oh well .....
sligowoman
Exactly right
Spend on education targeted at the next generation.
Spend on economic programs that minimize poverty and generate sustainable self-sufficiency. Spend on cultural programs that promote understanding and acceptance of different cultures and religions. Spend on encouraging democracy, encouraging equal rights for women, and so on.
This is not to say that everyone who becomes a terrorist is poor and uneducated -- research suggests that many terrorists are wealthy and relatively well-educated. But that sort of extremism is more likely to arise within a certain type of society, and that we can work to change. It's impossible to convince every wanna-be terrorist to love us; it is possible to change the widespread conditions that permit terrorism to seem reasonable and justified, and that will minimize the threat we face and do a lot of additional good into the bargain.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Yes and this also works well
in our own impoverished neighborhoods to keep kids off the streets and out of prison.
It is the economy, stupid.
A Liberal Israeli Lobby....!
If that old saying is true, that it is darkest right before the dawn, I am seeing hopeful signs of light seeping through.
A More Dovish Approach from the Israeli Lobby
Couple this new with Bush's invitation to the leader of Palestine yesterday and I see changes on the horizon.
_______
And for us Obama groupies.... I for one am tickled pink that today,
Bob Casey (D) of Pennsylvania will be endorsing Barack Obama and traveling with the Senator on his six day tour through the state.
The news is relevant, because Casey is a Catholic, and because he had previously said he was going to hold back on an endorsement.
My gut tells me that Clinton's anything to win strategy, includes riling up division among religions and races, something that is very unproductive to a civil society. This endorsement by Casey is a pre-emptive strike at unifying the democratic party behind the presumptive nominee.
It is the economy, stupid.
Obama sad that world doesn't see broader aspects of
racist and terrorist sympathizer, Pastor Wright.
From CNN
:
On the one hand, Obama has denounced what Wright has said and did. On the other, he continues to support the man and he feels badly that people don't know more about Wright's views ... views that are clearly racist and sympathetic to terrorist causes. Hmmm.
I think Obama is trying to have it both ways here, what about you?
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
See Bush Holding Hands with Saudi's above
See denunciation of inflammatory comments by Obama.
See McCain Seeking Hagee's endorsement. Pastor Hagee has said many many many inflammotry things that have not been denounced by McCain. McCain gladly accepts the money taken from the 'true believers' of Hagee's church.......
Jim Hagee's church, the Church that believes genocide for muslims will bring peace to the Jewish Nation so that Christians can retake the holy land.
It is the economy, stupid.
Not sure why this is such big news.
We've had McCain buddy Falwell and fellow traveler Robertson say, on cable news no less, that the attacks were America's fault for its sinful permissiveness. Terrorists were god's retribution (Falwell said the same about New Orleans and Katrina, apparently oblivious that his own Slidell church was decimated while the godless homosexual districts were undamaged).
And we've ripped into them from our corner of the blogs, so of course I expect tit-for-tat from conservatives on the Wright issue. Touché, and all's fair. What I don't get is the mass media response: until his death, Falwell was still a cable news celebrity, but Wright gets drilled into the ground on this?
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
For me, Falwell and Robertson come off as being
god fearing and morals driven. Wright comes off as hate filled to me. Maybe it is just a white/black culture thing?
Even so, my responses here are mostly of the tit-for-tat variety.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Really?
Christ (no pun intended), I'd hate to meet your God or see your morals.
It's most likely a culture disconnect. Being part of a Catholic tradition, I was taught that if you're having a good time at church, you aren't doing it right. People standing up during a sermon and yelling at the preacher? I think you'd, at the very least, be asked to leave if you did that at Mass.
Black culture, I believe, is significantly different from white culture. I don't wish to speak to your knowledge of the former, but a good deal of white Americans from very white areas don't understand black culture just as they don't understand Asian cultures or Middle Eastern ones either. Hell, I don't understand a lot of southern US culture.
It's one thing to say "I have black friends.", but quite another to be immersed black culture.
Now, I'll defer to our resident expert on black culture, Charles J. :-)
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Seen the reviews of Bush's Law: The Remaking of American Justice
Digby has one of the better ones.
Kevin Drumm has a good one over at Washington Monthly 
.
Boths say much the same thing about the NSA spying on Americans without warrants:
"Our reporting brought into sharper focus what had already started to become clear a year earlier: The concerns about the program — in both its legal underpinnings and its operations — reached the highest levels of the Bush administration. There were deep concerns within the administration that the president had authorized what amounted to an illegal usurpation of power. The image of a united front we'd been presented a year earlier in meetings with the administration — with unflinching support for the program and its legality — was largely a facade. The administration, it seemed clear to me, had lied to us."
Why am I not surprised to hear the conclusion that the Administration lied to the faces of our esteemed Main Stream Media?
They never lied.
Show me the quotes.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Five Former Secretaries of State: Close Guantanamo
Said Thursday the next president should move quickly to close the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
That single act would improve America's dismal reputation in the world immediately, agreed Henry Kissinger, James Baker, Warren Christopher, Madeleine Albright and Colin Powell.
"Guantanamo gives us a very, very bad name, not just internationally," Baker said. "I have a great deal of difficulty understanding how we can hold someone, pick someone up, particularly someone who might be an American citizen, even if they were caught somewhere abroad, acting against American interests, and hold them without ever giving them an opportunity to appear before a magistrate."
Maybe these folks don't understand what an anachronism the Constitution and The Bill of Rights is.
bush43 does though.
Earth Hour
For your consideration, a largely symbolic gesture (but hey, symbols can be powerful things): Earth Hour 2008
- turn your lights off from 8pm-9pm local time, Saturday night.
I hesitated to post this, since I'm sure it will inspire GoRight to turn on extra lights for that hour, but I figured the more people who know about it, the more powerful the symbol.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
LOL, I guess I'm becoming predictable!
I was just going to reply with exactly that suggestion! :)
I wonder how many homes will burn down during this time because people end up lighting candles instead...
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Don't worry, SL
North Korea
will more than make up for GR. ;)
They've been honoring "Earth Day" for decades.
Speaking of that lovely country, I found this Time Article
interesting reading.
Hey, good point.
I have entered into a lighting trading credits agreement with them. I get to keep all my lights on all the time and they agree to keep theirs out. So I'm good just like Al Gore and his carbon credits. :)
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
North Korea
Not that I think you were making a serious analogy, but I would like to point out that there is a rather large differrence between a population choosing to use less energy, and a population that has no choice whatsoever.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Yes.
I'm kidding.
But the net effect is undeniable. :)
Americans Support the RKBA
More Proof That Americans Support The Right To Keep And Bear Arms:
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Wrong gun poll question.
What do you think will the poll reveal if a more specific question is raised---
Do you approve or disapprove the buying of semiautomatic guns be restricted and that people buying guns should have their criminal background and mental illness history checked even in gun shows?
i bet you 66% will approve the restrictions.
You should contact Zogby about that ...
but in the mean time I prefer to rely on actual poll results rather than your imaginary poll results. No offense intended.
UPDATE:
Besides, the poll is trying to answer the question of whether the right to own arms is an individual right or a collective right, not wether restrictions are allowed/desirable.
In that context this IS the proper poll question, and once that has been resolved then the rest seems pretty straight forward: the [individual's] right to keep and bear arms shall not be infinged. "Shall not be infringed" seems to pretty much cover those restrictions (infringements) you are talking about.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Liberal "Green Legislation" could cost 1.8 million jobs by 2020.
For all of those here that are concerned with the current jobless rates, they might want to consider the impact of the proposed Lieberman-Warner climate bill (S.2191 - America's Climate Security Act):
1.8 MILLION JOBS MAY BE LOST BY 2020, NEW STUDY SAYS
A two page summary of the study is available here
.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
It May or it May not
such fear mongering........
It is the economy, stupid.
I report.
You decide.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
The usual double talk
I've decided. :)
It is the economy, stupid.
As have I.
I just don't see any reason to argue about this. The study is what it is.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
A stream of consciousness
Actually, my study says that I'll get a pony if the bill is passed.
And if indeed the report is true, I'll take lost jobs instead of Ohio being a coastal state. Priorities, priorities.
But as my friend Al once said, "We don't need to worry about global warming because peak oil will render it moot."
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Being a coastal state
could revitalize the rust belt!
(bad joke) :)
2020? 2030?
Who do these people think they are? Nostradamus?
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
I don't know what you are complaingin about ...
That (faux) Clinton Budget Surplus that you keep clinging to was never real, but was instead based on 10+ year projections using unrealistic assumptions.
You should try to be more consistent in your treatment of such things, skymutt. You current acceptance, or lack thereof, appears a bit partisan.
Even so, these projections are based on legitimate analysis. Your snappy retort is based on what, exactly?
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
I have to wonder
how much the writers of this report took into account things like this
when they made their energy price predictions. As John has said on more than one occasion, you can't know what innovations will come down the road.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Good Point...
Long term prognostications are hard to pin down with changing realties that we cannot pretend to predict....particularly when it comes to what the economy will look like in terms of composition.
Perhaps by today's POV and basket of knowledge and technology, there will be a shortfall in jobs...and they may be right...I don't discount that possibility...but it's hard to know what the economy will look like that far out. You need overly simplistic models or something akin to "Pong" or "Asteroids" to even start to predict...even though it's really infinitely more complex than World of Warcraft.
Who would have been even reasonably accurate about 1998-2008 back in 1988...let alone 1978? NOBODY.
Add to that
the potential costs
of unmitigated GCC (estimated at about 5 to 20% of GDP), and those figures GoRight gives may look minuscule in comparison.