Consistent to his character, Bush passes the buck one more time

promoted by John. We haven't really talked about Mr. Bush much lately.

George W. Bush is a decisive leader at times, I have to give him credit. When everything appears to be going his way, he has proven to be all too willing to take credit for the course of action on himself. For example, notice how he uses the word "we" in every single sentence of this paragraph from the infamous "Mission Accomplished" speech, wherein Bush plots a confident course into the future:

We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We're bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous. We're pursuing and finding leaders of the old regime, who will be held to account for their crimes. We've begun the search for hidden chemical and biological weapons and already know of hundreds of sites that will be investigated. We're helping to rebuild Iraq, where the dictator built palaces for himself, instead of hospitals and schools. And we will stand with the new leaders of Iraq as they establish a government of, by, and for the Iraqi people. (Applause.)

Bush, 5/1/2003

Now the one thing that we know about the word "we" as uttered by George W. Bush is that it is inclusive of... George W. Bush (and some other unspecified people). Back in May of 2005, when it still looked like Iraq was a cakewalk on the surface, George Bush was squarely at the helm, and he wanted it to be known that he was at the helm, that he was making the calls.

But the war turned. "We" didn't bring order. "We" didn't find WMD. "We" failed to effectively rebuild Iraq's infrastructure. And the Iraqi leaders "we" were standing with seemed to be having a tough time getting their act together. So as the American people quite naturally began to demand a change of course in Iraq, Bush couldn't figure out what to do. Bush anxiously looked around the White House for someone to pass the buck to, but Powell was gone and Cheney was too shrewd to allow himself to be made a scapegoat. In fact, nobody in Washington wanted to take the war off his hands. So Bush went before the nation and shrugged the responsibility for the future of the war off his shoulders, and onto the shoulders of the ubiquitous "commanders on the ground."

When he got criticized for not sending in reinforcements, he shrugged his shoulders: It's not my call, it's the Commanders on the Ground...

If our commanders on the ground say we need more troops, I will send them. But our commanders tell me they have the number of troops they need to do their job.

Bush, 6/28/2005

When he got criticized for not handing Iraq over to the Iraqis, he shrugged his shoulders: It's not my call, it's the Commanders on the Ground:

As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down. And when our commanders on the ground tell me that the Iraqi forces can defend their freedom, our troops will come home with the honor they have earned.

Bush, 11/20/2005

And that's how we got the failed 'Stay the Course' policy-- Bush's abdication of his Commander in Chief responsibilities, his unwillingness to make the call in an increasingly unpopular war, his failure to Set the Course, and so we got Off Course, (of course). True to his nature, when the criticism started to flow, the Decider was remarkably willing to share responsibility for his sorry lack of decsion-making with others who weren't getting paid to make those calls.

The pattern has held in other areas, too. In his response to disasters, for instance, we can remember how Bush proclaimed that the terrorists would soon be hearing from all of us ("us" meaing "George W. Bush plus some other unspecified people), while New Orleans only heard from Brownie, as the president passed the buck for Katrina, a tragedy with little upside, down the food chain of the federal bureaucracy.

And now we have another crisis: an economic swoon, with the economy hurtling towards a sharp recession. And with the country losing jobs, with the financial sector in collapse, with the dollar in freefall and the deficit skyrocketing towards 800 billion, it seems unlikely that even a prudent course of action will bear much fruit in the near term. So, with little in the way of upside in the remainder of his term, you just had to know that Bush wouldn't want to take responsibility for the course of action. And so you just had to know that it was about time for Bush to pass the buck on the economy to somebody. So I was watching Larry Kudlow interview the so-called Decider tonight, and there it was! There was the buck being passed, yet one more time:

The experts believe-- and they tell me, and I'm certainly no economic expert-- but they tell me that this economic package will have a positive effect on the economy throughout the year.

Bush on Kudlow & Company, 3/14/2008

And so it is for Bush on the $150 billion helicopter drop: It's not my call-- the experts think it will work though...

And for good measure: You're doin a heckuva job, Ben!

I've got all the confidence in Ben Bernanke, I think he's doing a very fine job during difficult times.

When Bush starts praising bureaucrats and appointees and deferring to "experts", it makes me wonder if I should start stocking up on canned goods and batteries.

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Canned

goods and batteries are only a very short term solution...

Sic semper tyrannis

…………

Bush's biggest stains

-Iraq
-NCLB
-Medicare Part D
-Ridiculous Veto-less spending until 2006 on all fronts
-Patriot Act

What's actually not his fault...or at least in part:

-devalued dollar (Fed)
-Skyrocketing fuel and energy (increased demand in China and India outstripping supply with no refinery expansion)

That final does get some blame on him though. Instability in the Middle East, and in Iraq's below-par oil production in particular, can be placed squarely at his feet. This has had ancillary effects on other rising prices.

Shame on the Dems for being more unlikeable than the GOP for so long. A little gridlock back in 2001-3 would have helped a lot.

…………

Bush's biggest achievements

1...

......................

........................................................

..........................................................................

.

.

...........dammit, I'm drawing a blank here.

 

oh wait, I've got a few!

1. Tax cuts. We never paid for them of course but the can be termed an accomplishment I guess.

2. Toppled Taliban and replaced with more moderate (if weak) Karzai government.  The Taliban were bad guys, and I approved of us cleaning them out.  Of course Afghanistan still is a failed, terror-addled narco-state and the Taliban is on the rise again, but let's forget about that for the moment, since we're talking about accomplishments.

3. Sarbanes-Oxley and assorted other Wall Street reforms (this is a mixed bag, and I dunno how much credit you can give Bush, but I have more confidence in the integrity of the stock market now thanwhen Bush took office)

………… parent

NCLB has some good points

which is why it was bipartisan legislation.

It certainly has drawbacks in practice and there are definitely things I would tweak but overall I'd count it as an achievement.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Bush/Cheney is the best libertarian argument

to liberal progressives demonstrating the errors of their ways.

You want a progessive state, but you want your guys in charge, that is, a left-progressive state.

Bush-Cheney demonstrate what happens when the other side believes in progressivism too, but right-progressivism.

If the Iraq war would have gone well, then the Rovian dream of a generational, right-progressivist state might have been a reality.

It's not always going to be your side that has the keys to the kingdom

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

…………

?

What? False analogy if I've ever heard one. Progressivism is fairly flexible in its definition, but to call what Bush and Cheney are doing 'Right Progressivism' is absurd. 'Progressivism' has some semblance of an organized rationale and meaning, so you can't just throw around the term like that.

You can't say "Here are the faults of fascism, so don't be an environmentalist" (not calling Bush/Cheney fascists here; just using it as an example). That makes no sense, but that is what you are basically saying. Apples and Oranges.

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Thanks, Skymutt

Thanks, Skymutt. I need an excuse for a good rant. This has been simmering for some time and I need to put it out there.

Every commenter so far seems to be giving the man's character a pass -- John's comment sums up a lot of George's actions, fairly IMHO, although I would put the falling value of the dollar fully in George's lap. If our spending was under control (lack of vetoes and the unending disaster that is Iraq) worldwide confidence in the dollar would be higher. In fact, IMHO again, this is where he has done the greatest, permanent, and irreversible damage to our future. America 20 years from now will be much less than it would have been, thanks to George.

But it's his character that's been his major failing. The man was a bumbler from the get-go, yet so many of us willfully and gleefully ignored that and voted for him anyway. Not very intelligent ("he's an average guy"), a horrible speaker ("he's just like you and me"), placing cliquish loyalty above ability and need ("he values his friends"), mediocre CEO ("he's been the head of corporations and knows how to get things done"), fails to seek or heed qualified advice ("he's decisive") and, just lucky ("he has protected us from another attack" -- funny how that same logic is never applied to his actions prior to 9/11 -- but that's another topic ).

All of these character flaws were present in 2000, and writ large in 2004. And it's easy to say, oh well, it's George's fault. And it is.

But it's yours, too. You voted for him, or failed to vote against him. For whatever reason. But you need to examine those reasons, honestly and clearly. What has happened, and what will happen, is a direct result of your actions.

Please don't be so stupid next time. Please.

/end rant

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

…………

easy there PF

watch where you throw those "you's". I never voted for him. Basically, 1 in 2 voters voted for Bush over the last 8 years. Hardly a national consensus.

But yes, there's plenty of blame to go around outside of elections. The dems being a big culprit as well as the media.

There's simply too much responsibility and too little scrutiny on pols. Many partisan voters claim to be scrutinious but they aren't. Far too many of us force ourselves to champion the mediocrity of collective decision making and trade offs that has too many consequences on the strength of slim majorities. And regardless of dissatisfaction, most continue to just vote the party line....prisoners of our own romantic illusions.

………… parent

Reasonable as always

I wasn't very reasonable, but it was a rant ;} I just get so tired of blind partisanship sometimes. "....prisoners of our own romantic illusions." Nice imagery; I like that.

But I did mean my "you" to be limited to those who did vote for him, those prisoners of their own romantic illusion that anything was better than the vaguely defined but ever-present liberal bogeyman. I put this presidency up as fact that indeed, "anything" is definitely NOT better than the bogeyman.

I agree, it's partly the liberals' fault for making that bogeyman so easily believable. I spent three hours the other night debating the merits of world government and whether or not the UN should set global minimum wages. . . . exhausting and slightly depressing work.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

………… parent

world gpvernment

would only make many of the problems I describe worse. You simply cannot govern in such a wide scale without even more of the same problems on a larger scale. I'd prefer a world with no government to that. It would be more peaceful. Remember the whole line about mediocrity in collective action and romantic illusions.

………… parent

Heh

Try explaining that to a room full of lefter-than-dKos liberals. Exhausting.

I need a T-Shirt: "Utopia Does Not Exist. Get Over It"

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

………… parent

Such a thing exists?

... a room full of lefter-than-dKos liberals.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

I'd love to meet them

I'll bring a camera and a tape recorder.

:)

………… parent

It wouldn't help to have a camera ...

we have lots of pictures of UFOs and aliens too.  :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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chuckles

………… parent

And why wouldn't he have some expertise on the economy by now?

Here's a man who's been a businessman, been a CEO of a decent-sized corporation, been governor of a large state for 6 years, and President for 7 years. 

I mean, he's certainly talked like he was an expert on the economy when the economy was better.  Here's a man who has talked about the economy for most of his term as if he had it all figured out-- as if it all was a simple matter of getting the government out of the way of business and letting people keep more of their own money.  Here's a man who made this confident statement about the economy just four and a half months ago:

One of the reasons I've come by is to remind you how important you are to
our economy. In other words, I'm the kind of person who believes that it's
important for those of us in government to encourage people to take risk
and to take investment. I like to remind people one of the key
cornerstones of my philosophy is, I don't believe the role of government is
to try to create wealth. It's to create the environment in which people
are willing to risk capital, to expand their businesses. And I appreciate
the fact that every day you're doing that. I appreciate the fact that you
have to worry about what your customers think; that you tailor your goods
and services to meet somebody else's demand. I appreciate the fact that by
providing a place for people to work, you help American families. And I
appreciate the fact that you've been a part of a remarkable economy.

Just this morning, we learned that the economic growth in the third quarter
was 3.9 percent. You hear people talking about whether our economy is
strong or not; well, here's an indication that it's strong. A lot of that
has to do with
the ability for people to dream big dreams and to follow
through on those dreams. I love the fact that people say, I own a
business. Ownership is a central part of making sure this country is a
helpful -- hopeful country.

I also am pleased to report to you that last September was America's 49th
consecutive month of job creation. It's the longest period of
uninterrupted job growth on record. A lot of that has to do with the fact
that we cut your taxes. There's a huge debate in Washington about cutting
taxes. I believe if you've got more money in your treasuries to spend,
it's more likely somebody is going to find work. I believe when American
families have more money in their pockets to save, invest, or spend, it
helps keep the economy strong. I believe you can spend your money better
than the federal government can spend your money.

That's the philosophy behind the tax cuts we have passed, and I appreciate
you supporting pro-growth economic policies. You understand that small
businesses work best when
there's more money at -- in circulation amongst
small businesses. Today, this afternoon, I'm going to sign into law an
extension of the Internet tax moratorium. We're making some progress in
convincing people in Washington that low taxes ought to be memorialized in
permanent policy.

Pro-growth economic policies work. That's one of the things I want to
share with you. In order to get out of a recession and recover from an
attack on the United States, we cut taxes on everybody who pays taxes,
because I'm not the kind of person that says, we're going to cut taxes on
you because of your political affiliation and not because of you -- on you
because of yours. I believe if you cut taxes, the only way to
-- fair way to do so is to cut taxes on everybody who pays income taxes.
And that's precisely what we did. And cutting taxes caused our economy to
not only recover, but grow, just like I told you -- 3.9 percent in the
third quarter, for example.

And when the economy grows, it yields more tax revenues. And by holding
down spending, it means -- and by the way, setting priorities such as
funding our troops when they're in harm's way -- it means you can keep
taxes low, grow the economy, set fiscal priorities, and reduce the deficit.
And that's what's happening, as I speak. And it's important for Congress
not to unwind this process by trying to raise your taxes. And I'm going to
use my veto pen to prevent them from doing so. (Applause.)

Bush, 10/31/2007 

Just notice the fact that when Bush had a quarter of strong GDP growth
to talk about, it wasn't "the experts believe"... it was "I believe", "my
philosophy is", and so on.  Just count the number of times Bush offers his own "expert" opinion about the economy in this statement.  And nowhere in this statement does George Bush indicate that any expert opinion is necessary beyond his own Texas horse sense!

………… parent

Texas Governors

have notoriously little power; he's a figurehead compared to most other states. It's the Lieutenant Governor that controls the power here. The statutory limits on the power of the Governor are relics of the "piss off" attitude Texas had during Reconstruction.

And we've already had several CEO discussions on this site. Those who continue to believe that all CEO's are true gods of industry and not fallible men haven't see many of them up close. But, George's "taking credit when times are good / deflecting blame when times are bad" actions are indeed an aspect of typical CEO behavior.

(I recognize the tongue in cheek; just chalk me up gloomy this week.)

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

………… parent

But it's spring!

Gloominess will vanish as the flowers start to bloom =)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Ah, so that explains it ...

(... just chalk me up gloomy this week.)

usually you are so level headed but this thread is a total bust you nutjob, you.  :( 

Perk up already! 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Predictable liberal ...

you guys need a new play book.

First you complain that Bush tries to take credit for things by using "we" then you complain that he is passing the buck by NOT using "we".  Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways. 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

…………

Aha! A Bush defender appears!

You must still feel really tight with Bush in order to be willing to mischaracterize my argument so badly in order to defend the man.

My argument, of course, is not that Bush randomly takes ownership of decsisions sometimes and not at other times, as you have implied. My argument is that Bush tends to take ownership of his decisions precisely when the outcome of those decisions seems promising to him and "gives credit" to others when the outcome of decisions seems to be not so promising.

 

………… parent

Oh, is THAT what you were saying?

It's still bunk.

My argument, of course, is not that Bush randomly takes ownership of
decsisions sometimes and not at other times, as you have implied.

How does my comment "imply" anything of the sort?  What part of my comment implies randomness?   Perhaps you misunderstand MY point.

Whenever Bush says "we" you complain that he is taking credit, and whenever he does NOT say "we" you complain that he is passing the buck.  This is 100% in alignment with your examples above, is it not?  So if my observation relies on random application of "we"s vs. NOT "we"s as you claim, then yours must as well because they are 100% in agreement.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Well, I can't expect you to see it...

It was there for you to see with your own eyes for 4 years, and you still voted for the man again in 2004. 

The "we" thing was just one example, just one piece of the puzzle that adds up to a man that takes credit when decisions are likely to be popular, and ever so subtlely shifts the burden of decision-maker to others when things are looking down.  I'm not talking about a total absence of "I" or "We" when the future course looks unpromising, or that he shares no credit for decisions which he thinks are winners.  Nobody is that obvious.  But there are general differences in tone, in wording.  It's only after careful observation of this man over a period of years that this pattern becomes clearly evident.  Perhaps, as a two-time Bush voter, you are a little reluctant to make those kind of critical observations about someone you endorsed for this job.

………… parent

Perhaps as a 2 time Bush non-voter ...

I'm not talking about a total absence of "I" or "We" when the future course looks unpromising, or that he shares no credit for decisions which he thinks are winners. [...] Perhaps, as a two-time Bush voter, you are a little reluctant to make those kind of critical observations about someone you endorsed for this job.

you are just seeing and hearing what you WANT to see and hear.

It sounds like your theory doesn't hold up to scrutiny since this statement pretty much discredits it right out of the gate because this amounts to an admission that the correlation you were claiming doesn't really exist.

Sometimes he says it one way, other times he says it the other. So what? That's how everyone talks. This is starting to sound sort of tin-foil hattish to me.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

No the correlation does exist.

It sounds like your theory doesn't hold up to scrutiny since this
statement pretty much discredits it right out of the gate because this
amounts to an admission that the correlation you were claiming doesn't
really exist.

The only allowance that I made in my previous comment was that there was not a perfect correlation, i.e. if Bush took all the credit for every single  promising decision and shifted all the credit for every non-promising decision, that would be a perfect correlation of the two variables in question.  But in complex systems, variables are often correlated but seldom perfectly correlated. 

So, it is your statement that does not stand up to scrutiny, sir.

………… parent

An imperfect correlation amounts to nothing in this case.

You have a pre-conceived idea and you are simply cherry picking examples to attempt to make your case.  Simple as that.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Meh

I have an opinion, based on my observations of this man over 7 years time, and I cited a few examples which shed some light on what I'm talking about.  And those examples I chose were not simply random, cherry-picked examples-- instead I chose landmark occasions of the Bush presidency such as the "Mission Accomplished" speech and Katrina.

If you want statistical analysis of the entire body of Bush's speeches by word frequency, you've come to the wrong place.  This is an opinion piece.  It is imossible to definitively prove my opinion's correctness, and there is no attempt here to do so.  

 

………… parent

I'll accept that ...

It is imossible to definitively prove my opinion's correctness, and there is no attempt here to do so.

 :)  Come on skymutt, you're making this too easy!

Fine, as a liberal you think Bush is scum, tell me something that might surprise me.  Suffice it to say that I don't necessarily accept or agree with your analysis here, but hey you don't always agree with me either, right? 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Scum?

Fine, as a liberal you think Bush is scum

I don't think Bush is scum, I think he is a happy go lucky guy of average mental capacities who would be well suited to be an insurance salesman or a realtor or something along those lines.  Sure, I sometimes call him an idiot, because idiot is as idiot does, and we have done many idiotic things as a country under Bush. 

By the way (and I have said this before) I supported Bush when 9/11 happened and for a few months after that, until it became obvious that he was not up to the task and we were getting sidetracked on Iraq rather than mopping up al Qaeda and the Taliban and doing what needed to be done in Afghanistan.  So, I gave this guy the benefit of the doubt.  If he had taken care of business in Afghanistan, I may have even voted for him in 2004.  Far from being a born Bush-hater, I was generous to this man to a fault during his first term. 

………… parent

You say po-tay-to ...

I say po-tah-to.

GoRight: Fine, as a liberal you think Bush is scum an idiot moron.

Skymutt: I don't think Bush is scum, I think he is a happy go lucky guy of average mental capacities who would be well suited to be an insurance salesman or a realtor or something along those lines. Sure, I sometimes call him an idiot, because idiot is as idiot does, and we have done many idiotic things as a country under Bush.

The bottom line is that you will attack him in any way you can, and as such your attacks have to be viewed in the partisan light from which they originated.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Good Lord

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Difference is ...

I don't try to hide it.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Oh please...

Bush has been a disaster in so many ways for this country, yet anyone who mentions such is castigated and put in your little box of 'known liberals, terrorists sympathizers, anti-Americans and Bush haters'.

No liberal is trying to hide how they feel.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Hey, don't blame me as a librul

I'm just saying what conservatives have been saying about Bush for some time now:

Q. What prompted you to do the now infamous "Is Bush an 'idiot'?" segment?

Scarborough: Somebody had suggested that we get Linda Ronstadt's quote where she called the president an idiot and do what we've been doing for the past three or four years, where we make fun of a Hollywood star questioning the president's intelligence. It's something we've been doing mindlessly over the past several years, but as I was reading it, I couldn't help but think, "Well, wait a second -- I've been hearing this from conservatives for the past year or so. Why don't we ask a question: whether Linda Ronstadt, Democrats and Hollywood left-wing types are on to something." So we put the question up, and I suppose if our lower third had read "Is Linda Ronstadt right?" instead of "Is Bush an 'idiot'?" in quotes, it would have garnered a lot less attention. But we put it up that way, and it has sparked a firestorm. The White House is unhappy. A lot of conservatives are unhappy. Well, not conservatives. A lot of Republican loyalists are unhappy. But again, the only thing I did was ask publicly what a lot of conservatives have been saying privately since Katrina and the Harriet Miers nomination.

link  

But then again, maybe all those conservatives who were calling Bush an idiot weren't True Patriots. Maybe the price of being a True Patriot is that you have to defend a Republican President from any liberal criticisms, no matter what, even if it means defending an administration with it's thumb up its rear end as the people of New Orleans desperately cried for help. Maybe the price of being a True Patriot is that you have to support incompetent cronies being installed into the Supreme Court, no matter what, just to balance out the librul criticism.

 

………… parent

Not to start a tirade tangent here

But I must say, as as stern a critic of Bush as anyone, that the Katrina thing is a little overdone.

The failures on a local level were as massive as any by the fed.

The sense of righteous inaction and pass-the-buck finger-pointing by the local authorities because, well, "DC should handle everything" is just as egregious.

Perhaps it's not their fault that we are so unprepared in so many ways for so many things because we, as a people, have this habit of deferring to the Feds for everything and then being disappointed when things "don't work out as planned"....but I'm so quick to give that kind of slack.

Could Bush and Co. have done more...or at least appear to do more? Sure.

Is Katrina the damning stain on the Bush Administration that liberals make it out to be? Not quite.

Katrina, to me, is a systemic failure that only becomes apparent when we expect FEMA do what it couldn't really do all along.

………… parent

It starts with not funding the levy

construction. Models were in place. Studies done. Blueprints planned. The Bush decided the war in Iraq was a higher priority and redirected the funds.

There is no excuse for this. None. It is a failure of leadership. We see other disasters, like say the Minnesota bridge collapse being funded Immediately.
Folks could just as easily have blamed that disaster on the locals. Why didn't they? Answer that question honestly.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

How much did Clinton fund ...

compare to Bush?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

I thought about asking that

but I didn't want to complicate things.

………… parent

We've been over this ground so much already ...

I don't want to look up the references again.  My recollection is that (a) Clinton knew of the same problems and didn't spend any more than Bush, at least not dramatically so if at all, and (b) a HUGE percentage of the money sent down there ended up being used for projects OTHER than the levies.  I seem to remember studies about more highways over Lake Pontchartrain or some such.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Well, I don't know

I honestly figured the real story was something dull, boring and utterly predictable like that. Usually is. I would not be at all surprised if that were true. I kinda suspected it might be...but again...I didn't want to make unsubstantiated claims.

Thanks.

………… parent

OT: You guys weren't watching John Adams on HBO?

Good stuff...

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

Recorded

been looking forward to it. Gonna watch it tomorrow. HBO should start adapting a lot McCullough's stuff into mini-series.

Adams Vs. Jefferson was actually not by McCullough but was a great book. I'd love to see a movie version.

………… parent

thanks.

………… parent

A classic rebuttal

Your only admission of Bush lying was in reference to the Katrina incident don't forget.

………… parent

Even though you are a donkey

LIke an elephant you never forget!

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Wholeheartedly disagree.

New Orleans' ENTIRE BUDGET for 2005 was under $500 million .

FEMA alone had a budget of over $3 billion in 2005. Homeland Security had a budget of over $31 billion , including billions for agencies such as the Coast Guard that can be brought to bear in emergencies such as Katrina.   

Moreover, New Orleans' resources were hit by the hurricane itself.  First responding agencies were in disarray because they, too, had been hit by the disaster.  Civil authority had totally broken down.  FEMA and other Federal Government resources had no such disadvantage. 

FEMA/Homeland Security had the resources; the locals did not.  There was no excuse for those people to be stranded in New Orleans for days on end.  A real President, seeing that things were in disarray, would have lit a fire under some butts and gotten the job done, rather than just casually maintain his previous schedule.  A real President would have had competent people in charge of the relevant Federal Agencies. 

You see, i don't have such a dim view of what the Federal government is capable, if properly led-- I have higher expectations than you do.  And it's not like the Feds have been so impotent during past disasters.  We seemed to do a pretty good job of responding to disasters on the Federal level with Clinton and James Witt in charge of things, even without any grand Homeland Security Department.  

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I think

"Mildly beg to differ" would have been a better answer. But hey, that's just my opinion.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that the Bushies could not have done a better job. Remember, I DID say that.

My point is that THAT JOB could not never reach the expectations that people placed on it.

Katrina was the strongest hurricane to hit our shores in as long as I can remember and it happened in the most vulnerable city.

Just keep in mind, When I said that local authorities could have done better, I meant leading up to the hurricane as well. Once the hurricane hit, it was pretty much too late to do anything.

And when I said local authorities, I also meant the state of LA.

Remember, I'm not saying that the Feds couldn't have done a better job, I'm just saying that that job is more limited that you may think. LA and NO together could have done more over the years.

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We have past models

of success to base our experiences on. Katrina was a disaster within a disaster.

That it continues shows a stubborness of ideology that is perverse, bordering on pathological.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Ideology?

Y'aright, there?

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Perfect

thanks for asking

It is the economy, stupid.

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Heh,

I'm just saying there are better ways to handle and PREPARE for such contingencies.

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The locals were prepared

to a large extent. They had digital models of the needs. The Feds refused to fund the levy's. Can't have big government helping the states said George.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Ooo, digital models. Just like the gobal warming ones, eh?

Even so, how old were these models?  When were they prepared?

How much money did Clinton spend on New Orleans?  How much money made it to the levies vs. the pockets of local politicos? 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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"Mildly beg to differ"

"Mildly beg to differ" would have been a better answer.

Perhaps, but I just don't have this resigned attitude that I detect in your posts that the Federal Government is by its very nature helpless and inept.  It is not a mild philosophical difference that we have on that issue.  I know that government can do much better because it has done much better in the recent past.  And to me, it makes much more sense for us to have a strong national disaster relief agency like FEMA used to be, rather than for each state to have its own mini-FEMA.

Once the hurricane hit, it was pretty much too late to do anything.

Well, they could have gotten some buses rolling down there to get the people out of the SuperDome, etc. just a little bit faster, don't you think?  This is where it's key to have a President who will take charge, make a couple calls, and cut through the red tape.  Do you really think it would have taken up to a week for some people to be bused out of the Superdome and the convention center if Clinton were in office when Katrina hit?  I sincerely doubt it-- epsecially consindering that they had several days of warning that Katrina was likely to make landfall as a major hurricane near New Orleans.  No, Clinton and his competent appointees would have had some sort of plan in place and would have been communicating with the proper Federal agencies and state and local authorities. 

We aren't talking about exotic items here, we're talking about buses, helicopters, bottled water, food, basic medical supplies.

Just keep in mind, When I said that local authorities could have done better, I meant leading up to the hurricane as well.

Yes, everybody could have done better, and the locals did a lousy job too, but the locals don't have the money and the resources that the Feds do.  The locals, for instance, didn't have stockpiled food, water, and supplies for the Superdome and the convention center.  Why couldn't the Feds have those supplies at the ready and fly them in once the weather cleared?

And as MissLiberties points out, the levees, the major failure point which turned a minor disaster into a major one, were the purview of the Corps of Engineers, a federal agency.

 

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FEMA's response

to Katrina was criminal and still is.

Billions later folks are still living in trailers that are making them sick with that formedehyde (sp?). Do you think the Fed will pay for their health care. Of course not. (That's the states job.) It's almost like they want poor people to just suffer and die.

It is the economy, stupid.

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And why are they still in trailers?

Because the city won't turn on the basic services, as I recall the last time this came up per pico.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Fair enough

I simply err on the side of low expectations. To me, big federal agencies are like a big clumsy wrecking ball while locally conceived and operated agencies are like jackhammers: more agile, more measured.

1. I think the very presence of FEMA leaves states and localities with a false sense of security that "it's covered". Again, I'm not saying there's no place for federal help but I think it should be monetary. I'd rather see disaster relief supplemental funding and an open hand from the Feds to offer whatever help is needed...you need National Guard? You got it. You need this or that? No problem. But the who organizational apparatus should be local or at the state level. They know better how to handle things and conceptualize contingencies and protocols.

2. Yes. Buses. I said the same thing. Very true. Total blunder at every possible level. You;d have thought the mayor or the governor...let alone Bush...would have done more. Again, I blame everyone.

But let's remember, Katrina hitting NO was unique in its devastation. A category 5 hitting a sub-sea level bowl in the ground. yikes.

3. Fair enough. But that's what I mean by point #1. The whole institutional background needs to change to change incentives.

I don't think we're that far apart. I think a face to face chat on this would show that. A lot of what I'm hinges on "road not taken" alternate realities whose full ripple effects are hard to fully appreciate since they don't exist.

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Liberal apologist.

Moreover, New Orleans' resources were hit by the hurricane itself. 
First responding agencies were in disarray because they, too, had been
hit by the disaster. 

See, poor planning on their part.  It's not like they weren't warned it was coming.  How about a little contingency planning?  Being hit by the hurricane is no excuse given the advanced warning that they had.

And what about evacuation plans beforehand?  Where where those?  They didn't even try to evacuate people, remember all those school buses just sitting there?  As everyone keeps pointing out people were already predicting that the levies wouldn't hold.  NOT evacuating the population under those circumstances is the criminal part of all this, and the city should be held responsible.

Civil authority had totally broken down.  FEMA
and other Federal Government resources had no such disadvantage.

You cna say THAT again.  I seem to remember video of the cops looting right along with everyone else.  Do you excuse that too there mister liberal apologist?

As for FEMA or the Feds having not had the disadvantage of being hit by the hurricane, well duh.  You would have prefered that they moved everything INTO the area BEFORE the storm hit?  By keeping those resources out of the area they insured that they would still be available to help.  Could they have deployed faster?  Sure, but under the circumstances there wasn't much that could have been done anyway. 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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See, poor planning on

See, poor planning on their part.  It's not like they weren't warned it
was coming.  How about a little contingency planning?  Being hit by the
hurricane is no excuse given the advanced warning that they had.

No excuse for them, and no excuse for Bush and Brownie and Chertoff either.  When the local plans broke down, as sometimes happens when the locals are scrambled by a disaster, the Feds need to be on the ball and fill the void.

You cna say THAT again.  I seem to remember video of the cops looting
right along with everyone else.  Do you excuse that too there mister
liberal apologist?

Well, a real president, seeing civil society break down in this matter, would take decisive action and bring Federal resources to bear to restore order, but instead, Bush had to share a birthday cake photo op with John McCain that day.

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+4

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Meh. The Katrina flap is liberal hype.

Maybe the price of being a True Patriot is that you have to defend a
Republican President from any liberal criticisms, no matter what ...

Yep, just like in the '90s being a True Patriot meant the same thing in reverse.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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That's good to know :-)

Yep, just like in the '90s being a True Patriot meant the same thing in reverse.

Good thing that being a True Democrat doesn't require blind loyalty to the Democratic Party.  I don't think that Russ Feingold and me and the rest of the True Democrats could adhere to that standard! 

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See, you DO agree with me sometimes! :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Oh yeah, and as far as being liberal hype...

If Clinton presided over a clusterfork like the Katrina response, you would have been calli