How To Lose In November

You would think that after two unsuccessful Democratic Presidential bids that the members of the Party would have learned some things by now. I guess losing two elections to a Republican who will undoubtedly go down in history as one of our worst Presidents has taught them nothing. I am often surprised by the progressive critics of Senator Obama for not being specific enough in his speeches and being soft on policy. So I suppose Al Gore and John Kerry lost because they were not specific enough in their campaigns concerning policy and that George Bush won because he was more specific? I doubt anyone would accuse George Bush of being a policy wonk. No, the reason those two lost is that they were defeated not by policy, but by philosophy. Neither man had the tools to inspire the masses to overcome the political rhetoric of the Republican machine.

Does any progressive believe that Gore or Kerry would not have made a better President than Bush or that their policies would not have benefitted more Americans? The problem is this, most average Americans do not vote based on policy. I wish I could say that our voters were savvy and sophisticated and were abreast of the issues and the candidates, but this would be a lie. Unfortunately in a democracy while it functions best when the electorate is engaged and educated on the issues, it allows for the electorate to not be if they so choose. Do the majority of voters vote based on specific issues? I would submit to you that they do not. George Bush did not get elected because he represented the best policies for the majority of the voting public. So if it isn’t based on policy statements, then what is it based on?

Since the advent of television and its introduction into our political process our elections have fundamentally changed as the public has changed. We have gone from a nation of readers to a nation of watchers. Before the advent of television if someone wanted information they had to actively seek it out in books or newspapers. Today this is no longer the case, today our homes are bombarded by information on a constant basis. This would not be a bad thing if that information were honest and credible, unfortunately many times it is not. When the majority of the electorate bases it’s choice on questionable and often times false information then bad choices are going to be made. Which brings me to the criticisms of Senator Obama and their basis in a false reality.

There are many progressives who say that it is unfair to have a candidate that we know so little about. I would have to agree, if we lived in a perfect world where every candidate’s policies and records were presented in a truthful manner then this would not be too much to ask. However, we don’t live in that world. We live in a world where much of our political discourse is based on outright lies and deception. Where traits that in a normal world would be considered strengths are manipulated into weaknesses. We live in a world where a decorated war hero can be reconstructed into a lying unpatriotic coward based on innuendo and outright lies. The truth of the matter is that rightly or wrongly the majority of the American voting public is not comfortable with the truth. Many progressives believe that the candidates should be forthright and straightforward about their agendas and should be willing to tell the public some unpleasant truths. The reality is that many Americans do not want to hear these unpleasant truths, no matter how accurate they may be. And those who tell these truths are often times defeated in landslides.

The beauty about Senator Obama’s candidacy is that because he speaks to larger concepts instead of specific policies it is more difficult to craft false narratives about him. His opponents have a difficult time developing and targeting specific areas with which to attack him. While progressives see this as a weakness it is in fact under our current electoral conditions a strength, as Hillary Clinton can attest to. It is very difficult to attack hope, change, and dreams for a better America. So how do we know who Senator Obama is and what he will stand for? The answer to this question is not difficult to find. All one has to do is look at his life prior to this campaign and I would submit prior to his even taking elective office. Many times I have heard the comparisons between Bush and Obama and to me it seems ridiculous to compare the history of the two. All one has to do is to look at the history of the two men to see the foolishness of such a comparison. The Bush history has always been crafted in lies and misleading facts from his being a unifier as Governor of Texas to his belief in compassionate conservatism.

Senator Obama began his career as a community organizer in the ghettos of Chicago reaching out to the disenfranchised and the forgotten, while George Bush began his career as a trust fund baby drinking and drugging himself into oblivion. While Senator Obama spent his early adult years helping people, Bush was spending his helping himself. Bush had no understanding or empathy for those less fortunate than himself so his references to such were empty rhetoric crafted to reach an electorate that was either unwilling or too disinterested to uncover the lies.

In order for Senator Obama to win in November he will have to continue to speak to larger concepts mixing in specifics as they are warranted. Despite the progressive mantra to the contrary most Americans do not vote based on policy briefs, they vote based on a feeling. I know it is a hell of a way to elect the most powerful person in the world, but welcome to democracy. As long as Senator Obama is able to stay above the specific policy debates he will remain much more difficult to attack. While he leaves himself open to the “all sizzle and no meat” criticism which for the most part does not seem to be sticking, I think that it is a risk worth taking. Without those specifics the Republican attack dogs are left with few avenues of attack and the ones that they are left with are dangerous and subject to backfire against them. So far the best they have been able to come up with is the false Muslim story, his middle name, and he doesn’t wear a flag lapel pin attacks.

The difference between Obama and Clinton or Obama and McCain for that matter is not in policy, but in philosophy. Those two represent the past and Obama represents the future, a future we will help to craft. The thing that bothers me about the net-roots criticism of Obama is how they try to make it all about him and forget his message of change for all of us. I have read where people have written in blogs and in the MSM media of what if I don’t want to change, what if I am ok the way I am, well that’s fine no one says you have to change. Remember, the Flat Earth Society still meets annually and I am sure they are in the market for new members.

There are many more wrong answers than right ones, and they are easier to find - Michael Friedlander

The Disputed Truth

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The Netroots thinks they are the progressive movement.

They aren't it by themselves, just a part of a larger progressive group. But I am thankful for what they have been able to do. Without them, the MSM would still be taken as the word of God, and who in their right minds wants to think that idiots like Tim Russert or Chris Matthews represents the masses?

The netroots could grow up a little. But they are still feeling their oats. It won't happen till after they crash once really hard. Don't expect that to be this election though. John McCain is going to be this years Dukakis. Progressives will pull it together and vote for which ever one wins. Why do I say this? Because only a few of my idiot freinds will vote for Nader & Matt Gonzales. That and there are too many people watching the polling places this time for an election to be stolen like 2000 & 2004 were.

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A future trending more and more toward fascism...

All things being equal, yes I would prefer Obama to the likes of McCain. Nevertheless, when you examine many of the policy proposals of Obama(not all, he is good on some things), even Freedom Democrats noted Obama's proto-fascist tendencies .

if you really want change, you will reject progressivism and convert to libertarianism. Otherwise, relying on a cult of personality to enlightenly run the progressive state is folly in my opinion. I mean if the future is up to us to craft, then what is the rationale for the progressive state. if you assert that there needs to be centralized monopoly guidance and enforcement to direct such change, then what's your argument against the right-progressive enforcement model when it's elected.

Arguing that we need a progressive state but our guys need to be in charge to run it has never held much water with me, from the right or the left.

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

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Bah..... hooey

This cult of personality......... is hooey. Obama inspires some people. OMG, that's awful.

Hillary inspires some people. The horrors of the Hillary cult raises it's ugly unbending head.

Did you want a progressive state with Haley Barbor leading the charge?

It is the economy, stupid.

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You mistake the issue

I am often surprised by the progressive critics of Senator Obama for not being specific enough in his speeches and being soft on policy. So I suppose Al Gore and John Kerry lost because they were not specific enough in their campaigns concerning policy and that George Bush won because he was more specific? I doubt anyone would accuse George Bush of being a policy wonk.

The issue is not that I think Obama can't win with vague appeals to emotion, but that he shouldn't.

In other words, given what a nightmare our last vague feel-good president turned out to be why on earth are you eager to elect another?

The lesson to be learned from the bush years is NOT that Dems should mimic him. Not at all.

The difference between Obama and Clinton or Obama and McCain for that matter is not in policy, but in philosophy. Those two represent the past and Obama represents the future, a future we will help to craft.

Meet the new boss...

The thing that bothers me about the net-roots criticism of Obama is how they try to make it all about him and forget his message of change for all of us.

I find this passage disturbingly messianic. Honestly. It uses almost verbatim the diction and pattern of Mormon missionaries trying to convert (Haven't you ever wondered about Heavenly Father's plan for you?).

That's frightening. Not because I know you and am disturbed by some change I've seen in you, but because it is becoming rather prevalent on the left, or at least in the more vocal elements of the left.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Given that every President has run

on a message of change....to some degree.

I find your comments about Obama disturbingly naive.

It was Clinton's campaign message, for Chrissake. .....change!

Do you want us to elect a President we feel bad about?

Of all arguments, I think this is the most stupid. How in the hell do you expect someone to win an election without being appealing to the voters?

The question is one of consistency in message and record.

With Bush it was obvious he was a dufus from the get go.

I would love to see Obama win and live up to the potential that many see in him, in part just to prove cynics like yourself wrong! :)

It is the economy, stupid.

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4

:-)

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Well, at least Obama has half of your prescription ...

The question is one of consistency in message and record.

His message is clear and consistent, he is for Change ... and Hope.

His record is ... umm ... gee nothing much here. He "hopes" for "change" but from what to where? That is the great unkown with Barrack [I'm afraid of my own middle name] Obama.

Paraphrasing Obama:

I am for change. I believe that the old ways must become the new ways, and I have hope that one day the new ways will be a change from the old ways. We cannot live in the past but must forge ahead into the future ... a future full of change. Oh, and of hope. They told me not to forget about Hope.

When I look back into the politics of the past all I see is the old ways. These must not be the ways of the future, so what we need is change. Change and hope. And hope for change ... we need lots of that too for without hope we will not be inspired to change. And mark my words, if we are to have change, change must not only come to us but to the future as well which is full of hope. At least I hope so.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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That wasn't the point

I have no problem with Obama choosing "change" as a campaign theme. Given the situation it makes perfect sense.

What concerns me is that "change" may be the sum total of his campaign. A theme is one thing. Your answer to everything is something else.

The other concern is that statements like "His plan for change for all of us" is disturbingly tinged with religious overtones.

That bothers me a lot, because I'm hearing things like it *a lot*. I don't believe that Obama is running a religious campaign, I'm just not sure all his supporters got the memo.

Do you want us to elect a President we feel bad about?

I want you to elect a president that you have carefully and realistically and critically examined.

The question is one of consistency in message and record.

I don't disagree, I just don't see how we can say Obama has shown that given that his message is vague bordering on vapid and his record is nonexistent.

I would love to see Obama win and live up to the potential that many see in him, in part just to prove cynics like yourself wrong! :)

If he wins I pray he lives up to what his supporters want him to be. I fear though it is more likely he'll be a terrible president, ineffective at best, despotic at worst. And likely many of his followers will still defend him, because their admiration seems more built on his charisma than on any substance.

it seems to me that in the wake of a devestatingly bad president the best thing to do is not to risk everything on a roll of the hard eight

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Hmm...

If he wins I pray he lives up to what his supporters want him to be.

Tlaloc's posts: disturbingly tinged with religious undertones?

Now, on a completely different subject: see if you can find the code in Tlaloc's recent slams of Obama: 

it seems to me that iN the wAke of a DEvestatingly bad pResident the
best thing to do is not to risk everything on a roll of the hard eight

 

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Cute :P

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Though I disagree with you at times

you've been a joy to read lately. Sometimes insightful, but always clever. :-)

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skymutt's also helping keep me sane

over at dailykos. Wow, it's gotten bonkers lately!

*cue Ender or GoRight - you couldn't ask for a better lead in.

There's still a solid core of sane people there, but the really obsessed have formed a difficult bloc to counter. I had to outright call one of their most popular diarists a liar - no equivocation: he was lying, plain and simple - but the comments were shut off before I got a reply.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Just scanned thru some of your recent participation over there

Let's use our brains people , indeed.  You'd wish that stuff like that would go without saying, eh?  But no, it really did need to be said, and you did a fine job of it-- too the point, yet diplomatic enough so as to not entirely put off the target audience.  I wish I'd been around for that so I could have out in my 2 cents.

"Comments Disabled"?  What's up with that?  Since when have whole comment sections been wiped out?  I do not recall ever seeing that before.  OMG Obama's head is squashed and.... blacker?  jeaz these people ought to come to Ohio and see how opponents pictures are distorted and mangled... grainy black and white, photoshop their head on a body in prison stripes, show em picking their nose... Obama's pic is a glamour shot compared to some of the pics I've seen.

 

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Thanks!

Wait-- just sometimes insightful? ;-)

Just kidding, very kind of you to de-lurk and say this, made my day :-)

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Obama has the potential to be a great president

He also has the potential to be a one-term wonder.

It is natural to be filled with hope after suffering through the long and dark wilderness of the Bush Era. I was filled with a similar hope in 1993 when Clinton took the oath of office and everything looked so hopeful after Reagan/Bush came to a merciful end.

I was inspired in 1968 by Bobby Kennedy. I was inspired in 1980 by Ted Kennedy. I was hopeful in 1984 that Gary Hart could deliver change to a stodgy Democratic Party. In 1988 it seemed the long Reagan nightmare might end. I was a Deaniac before it was cool.

I've been hopeful and inspired -- and ultimately disappointed -- so many times I became a Cubs fan.

So far Obama neither inspires me nor gives me hope.

It's not because of a lack of policy specifics. I don't really care about that because things change rapidly. In 2000, for instance, Bush ran against nation-building for Christ's sake.

What I look for is guidance on what sort of human being a candidate is. I want to know what a candidate is passionate about, how he/she deals with ordinary people or with his/her staff, etc. I look for how he/she will handle things that might come up in the future that no one is considering today.

What sold me forever on Bobby Kennedy was his tour of the Mississippi Delta. That convinced me of the deep-seated, sincere compassion for his fellow man that RFK had and would bring to all his decisions in the White House. I haven't seen anything like that from Obama yet.

All I see in Obama is potential. He could turn out to be the next FDR or he could be a bust. And that makes me uneasy.

Of course, he could have his own Mississippi Delta Tour moment and I'll become an Obama-maniac and foam at the mouth like the DKos crowd. I certainly hope so. It would be nice to be inspired and have someone actually deliver on that for a change.

qui tacet consentire

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It's hard not to be cautious

and skeptical after your hopes have been dashed into the ground. But how can you not take the risk.

It would be more than nice to be inspired by someone who can actually deliver for a change. I say take a risk, when you have the opportunity.

I was too young to remember much about Bobby Kennedy. The most inspiring moment to me re: RFK, was after MLK was assisnated and he chose not to cancel his speech. The sucking of breath when he announced the death, and the amazing amazing moment when he announced that his brother was also killed by a white man. It brings tears to my eyes still.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Don't forget

Don't forget you don't have to change or be a part of the change. I can get the location and time of the next Flat Earth meeting. I think they meet somewhere in Spain...:-)

From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth; from the laziness that is content with half-truths; from the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth – oh God of Truth deliver us!— Unknown (blog )

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I'm with Tlaloc on this one, for the most part.

First, I'll say that I don't think Obama is all empty fluff, and that his record - while not extensive - is still solid and impressive for the amount of time he's been in office. He can handle himself just fine, and most of his specific policy platforms I can easily get behind.

But stuff like this just disturbs me:

The difference between Obama and Clinton or Obama and McCain for that matter is not in policy, but in philosophy. Those two represent the past and Obama represents the future, a future we will help to craft.

Um, no. The difference is in policy, and this "past/future" rhetoric is simply that: rhetoric. Saying "I represent the future" doesn't put bread on the table, but having a well-crafted economic plan does. If Obama does have a tangibly different approach to politics in general, I haven't seen it.

Speechifying may impress some people, but the more you know your history, the less impressed you'll be. The same techniques of speechmaking have been solidly in place since the ancient greeks (with Pericles at the top , of course). Ethos, pathos, logos. Obama leans more heavily on pathos than the other two, which is fine. It's all empty words whether it's coming from Obama, or Clinton, or McCain.

Where it does matter is how they'll vote, how they'll perform, and how they'll lead. In short, it IS policy.

What bothers me so much about your posting is that you're actually praising Sen. Obama for being insubstantial in his speeches: the people who tell the truth get slammed in the polls, so Obama should be commended for not saying anything substantial enough to be criticized for. That's nuts!

But it's also somewhat untrue: Obama is a lot more substantial in his speeches than his detractors give him credit for. All the speeches I've seen, he launches into concrete details just as much as his competitors, but apparently the swoon-inducing lines are elsewhere, and that's what his supporters remember.

I think you're actually doing a disservice to Obama by helping perpetuate this.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Okay, this was a bit harsh.

If you're excited about a candidate, I'm very happy for you, and I meant that sincerely. We live in an apathetic culture, and anything that brings people out, and gives them a reason to become personally invested in the process, is a GOOD thing.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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That's where you are wrong

That's where you are wrong, I am not praising Obama for being light, I am instead decrying a system of politics where he has to be to win.

We live in a world where much of our political discourse is based on outright lies and deception. Where traits that in a normal world would be considered strengths are manipulated into weaknesses. We live in a world where a decorated war hero can be reconstructed into a lying unpatriotic coward based on innuendo and outright lies.

From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth; from the laziness that is content with half-truths; from the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth – oh God of Truth deliver us!— Unknown (blog )

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Exactly

I believe he is fully aware of that fact, which I find inspiring :)

It is the economy, stupid.

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But you're saying his response is a good thing,

rather than striking at the root:

We live in a world where a decorated war hero can be reconstructed into a lying unpatriotic coward based on innuendo and outright lies.

So better not to be a decorated war hero, because that's just asking for manipulation? I really don't understand this line of logic. It follows that the blanker the slate, the better the candidate - but I don't want that, and I don't think you would either!

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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About the emphasis on 'war hero'

I've heard (anecdotal first-hand from family, so take that for what its worth) that McCain is going to highlight his soldier past, and this characterization is going to be important in the next election in distinguishing preferable traits over the Dem nominee.

Can I call hypocrisy on the Republican party now before this becomes a common theme. Remember '04? May it bite them in the ass.

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You may get your wish,

since this is already making the rounds.

I tend to agree with the editorialist, but you're right that it's hard to feel sympathetic towards Republicans in light of the SwiftBoat success. But I will feel sympathetic for McCain, who has been on the right side of this issue from the beginning.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Not just success

they still pretend the swifties were noble defenders of the truth despite the fact that every piece of evidence showed they lied through their teeth. The right contiues to defend them, and hence I have no sympathy if the right gets swiftboated now.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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McCain has condemned them, though.

I understand (and agree with) your assessment of their defenders, but McCain's pretty unequivocally defended Kerry.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Gah

you commented as I was editing my post to address that point :)

Here's what I tried to say:
"I'd agree if McCain 2008 had any connection to McCain 200o or even McCain 2004. The problem is that he doesn't. He's embraced all the people he used to call scum. He;s sold out any shreds of decency and principle he might have had. Consequently- screw him.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

McCain 2008 not embracing the same people as McCain 2004??

August, 2004

………… parent

in 04 he embraced Bush

but it took 'til this campaign for him to embrace people like Fallwell.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Long term

I think we win by repudiating such tactics so that they are discredited for future contests.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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I certainly don't support

swifty style attacks on McCain by any party. But watch me laugh as the 527s come out of the woodwork to do it.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Good luck

be sure to tell me how that goes.

qui tacet consentire

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Just out of curiosity pico

Since you are so well read, and have an extensive knowledge of history, is there an elected leader out of the past (from any country) that you would have voted for with no reservations?

It is the economy, stupid.

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That's really hard to say

because I'd be looking backwards at what they'd done, so it would be unfair (if that makes sense). You never know what someone can do in the future, so when we vote we put a lot of faith in a politician's words, record, proposals, etc. If I picked someone from the past I'd be approaching it from the other end, and measuring their full life in retrospect.

But if I had to pick someone... probably no one without reservations. I tend to be suspicious of politicians in general, even though there are some I admire. If it comes down to who I'd admire enough to give a giant Hell Yeah! thumbs-up, I don't have to look to ancient history: Russ Feingold would get that from me right now. :)

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Feingold is my kind of Senator

The very best the Senate has to offer, without question.

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Good answer.....

How could we overlook the gifts of the present! Feingold.

Are their any leaders from history, ancient or otherwise that you particularly admire, whether you would have voted for them or not.

It seems like all great leaders come with some glaring flaw, that you discover later on. FDR and the internment and the court packing. JFK and his physical ills tended to by a physician, his relentless womanizing. All our 'greatest leaders' our heroes are flawed in some way.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Absolutely agree.

I think one of my favorite historical leaders was Emperor Claudius, who did a heck of a lot with so little. He was apparently ill-tempered, enjoyed barbaric gladiator fights too much, possibly supervised the demise of some of his worst political enemies, and was roundly hated by most of his contemporary historians. He was also brilliant, measured, accomplished, and probably the one of the most level-headed heads of state in the (very long) history of the Roman Empire. Very flawed man, but one I can admire anyway.

His story absolutely fascinates me. I'd be a little uncomfortable with him at the helm (especially if he considered me a political enemy!), but I can't help being drawn to him.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Sounds a little like Hillary

Skymutt got his joke, I get mine =P

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Heh,

okay, that did make me chuckle.

Claudius was also ill, although we're not sure why: some contemporary historians think he had tourette's. It helped him sneak through all the nasty infighting and political assassinations that wiped out the rest of his family. He became emperor by default.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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The wikipedia article is an interesting read

Do you think I, Claudius is any good as far as an entertaining overview?

I admit I'm more a fan of the Gladiator style stories (myths?) about Rome, but I'm willing to expand my focus at some point.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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I love "I, Claudius" -

that's actually what got me into reading about him: it was an assigned book in my high school, and I couldn't put it down. Graves is maybe a little too nice to Claudius - but it's an effective counter against the reams of libelous material that his contemporaries wrote about him, and that we now know was factually wrong. The BBC series is also excellent.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Been a long time

But I recall quite liking the BBC series as well.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Another oddity

What is with leaders that are sickly and ill.

Wilson was said to be quite ill, with the doctors always at the ready nearby.

FDR, pretended like he didn't have polio and was sickly towards the end of his long tenure.

JFK had a crippled back and couldn't make it without beinng heavily medicated and a doctors assistence.

And now Claudius with the tourette's.

It's a bit bizarre.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Don't forget Eisenhower's heart attack (attacks?)

Clinton barely was out of office before he was having major heart surgery.

Johnson was not a well man when he left office.

Reagan was showing signs of Alzheimer's while still in office (at least to my untrained eye)

Harding just keeled over, dead.

If they aren't sick when they go in, they're sick by the time they go out. 

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You have to wonder

if physical infirmity, a constant reminder of mortality, makes some leaders more compassionate than others.

Then again, as a counterexample you have Ivan the Terrible - although I grant him a little more leeway than most people. Anyone who grows up witnessing the assassination of his family (and even his wife eventually) can't be entirely faulted for taking revenge on the class of people who did it to him, even if he was already a psychopath (apparently he used to throw dogs off the towers just to watch them die. Sick, sick man.)

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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If his response

If his response gets him into the White House then yes I am. I don't understand why it has to be projected as a zero sum game with Obama. He did not just arrive from some Martian colony he has a record prior to his elective period as well as his elective period. I don't know what you guys want. But just so you know I have an essay for you. I can't share it yet because I haven't posted it to my site, but it is entitled, "Pickup Games, Black Guys, and Progressives. I'll leave it to your imagination what it deals with.

From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth; from the laziness that is content with half-truths; from the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth – oh God of Truth deliver us!— Unknown (blog )

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But you don't know him

If his response gets him into the White House then yes I am.

Why do you want him to be president when you can't say anything for sure about who he is or how he would govern? That's the point of having a record- so that we get a sense of the person before turning over massive amounts of power to them.

He did not just arrive from some Martian colony he has a record prior to his elective period as well as his elective period.

What executive experience? None. What foreign policy experience? None. What federal experience of *any* kind? Two years in the Senate.

That's really not at all far from "just arrive[d] from some Martian colony".

I don't know what you guys want.

That's pretty easy- policy proposals. Specific policy proposals. A reasonably detailed explanation of his view of the executive office. Concrete ideas of how he would approach some of the big issues.

Lacking a record means that it is far more important that we get substative policy suggestions from Obama, and they just don't seem to be coming. He seems to be asking us to just trust him.

I find that very unsettling.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Not really fair

That's pretty easy- policy proposals. Specific policy proposals. A reasonably detailed explanation of his view of the executive office. Concrete ideas of how he would approach some of the big issues.

How much time have you spent going through his proposals on his website? I've put in hours and I haven't read most of it. I've read much of The Audacity of Hope, which lays out his position on most big issues. I'm supporting him because I like his proposals, and because I think he can get them enacted.

And yes, he discusses the policy stuff in speeches, but those aren't the clips that get replayed on the news or make youtube highlights. Like Forgiven says, people seem to prefer the inspirational aspects. Fine, if that brings them in, that's great -- it is useful to be able to form a coalition to exert political pressure. But of course that doesn't mean there is no substance behind the rhetoric.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Alright

but it raises the question of why I *have* to go dig up his positions. Why aren't they front and center like pretty much everyone else? The worry is that if these are things just posted to his website and not things he himself directly comes out in support of then it is all to easy for him to just walk away later.

Who is there to hold him to it?

And yes, he discusses the policy stuff in speeches, but those aren't the clips that get replayed on the news or make youtube highlights.

Or newspapers, or blogs, or...

I don't believe there is a conspiracy of media to make him seem shallow. I think it is a deliberate choice by his campaign, and probably an effective one. A blank slate candidate is an effective way to run. I just disagree that we should reward it.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Who's making it a zero sum game?

I outright praised Obama and argued that his speeches are much more substantial than you're giving him credit for. I'll repeat it again:

First, I'll say that I don't think Obama is all empty fluff, and that his record - while not extensive - is still solid and impressive for the amount of time he's been in office. He can handle himself just fine, and most of his specific policy platforms I can easily get behind...

[snip]

Obama is a lot more substantial in his speeches than his detractors give him credit for. All the speeches I've seen, he launches into concrete details just as much as his competitors

You apparently missed that in your response to me.

Meanwhile you're giving a thumbs-up to the dumbing down of the conversation: because concrete details are avenues for attack, being vague and insubstantial is a wise move. Of course it ends up perpetuating the dumbing-down of political debate, because it effectively sanctions lack of substance.

So who's being zero sum here?

Here's hoping your planned essay actually addresses what I'm saying instead of what you think I'm saying.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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