This is racism?
Cross posted from This is racism? on my RightCounterpoints blog...
Daily Kos: Bill O'Reilly in All His Racist Glory
MissLaura over at DailyKos has a hit piece on how racist Bill O'Reilly is. Her complaint? Bill went to a restaurant in Harlem and had nice things to say about it. Yea, giving the Harlem restaurant a good review is now considered racist by the nut cases at DailyKos. O'Reilly's main points?
- It was a nice restaurant just like other famous restaurants in New York.
- The clientele are normal everyday people out to have a nice dinner.
That's it? That's the racism of Bill O'Reilly?
I remember when racism meant things like lynchings, and segregation, and Jim Crow laws in the south. Now it seems that we have come so far in this country that racism has been reduced to giving good reviews to restaurants in black neighborhoods. Is it me, or does this kind of cheapen the meaning of racism and belittle the things that those who really faced racism endured?
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Comments :
The right wing has a phrase they use frequently...
"the soft bigotry of low expectations."
Well, aren't Bill O'Reilly's race-based low expectations of Harlem restaurants a form of "soft bigotry" as defined by the right-wing catchphrase?
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
This is the first I have ever heard this phrase.
I'm not sure that I believe that it has Right Wing origins as it sounds decidedly leftist to me. Some examples please?
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Will 392 examples on whitehouse.gov do?
Take your pick
. Bush uses the phrase all the time.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Do any of these examples address anything outside
of education and no child left behind? I looked at quite a few and couldn't find any. So in essence, unless you can find some other examples, this is basically one big example with a specific context in which the phrase actually has a reasonable meaning.
As for whether Bill O'Reilly's comments are analogous or have some parallel meaning let us review his comments one at a time:
What does this statement actually say? It basically says that he was surprised that there wasn't a difference between Sylvia's and other restaurants in the city.
There wasn't a difference.
This statement does not imply that he had any expectation of it being better or worse, per se, only it might have been different.
It is you own bias that imparts the negative expectation, not O'Reilly's words. Ditto for the dkos author. And THIS is exactly analogous to what Bush means by the soft bigotry of low expectations ... that you and the dkos author obviously had low expectations of the blacks in Harlem which is why you interpreted the statement the way that you did.
Nothing in O'Reilly's statement actually indicates what his expectations were.
O'Reilly then goes on to clarify that he was surprised because the resaurant was owned by and catered to a specific ethnic group but there was no obvious influence from that ethnic background.
This is basically a comment on the level of assimilation all ethnic groups enjoy within out society. He is basically commenting on the fact that the various ethnic groups share a lot of fundamental characteristics ... it is in essence a comment on the lack of prejudice that he observed rather than an example of prejudice.
Here he again highlights that the difference in ethnicity might come out in the form of different styles of entertainment, which is to be expected. When you go to an Italian Restaurant you'd expect to have Italian style music and decore. Same with Chinese. Same with African-American. He is commenting on the parallels between the ethnic restaurants not expressing any predetermined expectations good or bad. That is being inserted by the readers in this case.
And well, it seems difficult for me to understand how anyone can interpret this as a prejudiced statement.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Why no analysis of the money quotes?
You say this:
But this is simply not the case: You left off the quotes at the end that indicate precisely what O'Reilly's expectations were:
Obviously, O'Reilly's expectation was screamed vulgarities and craziness.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
I hate to defend O'Reilly
who as far as I'm concerned is basically bereft of journalistic ethics, but that last quote was in the context of what constitutes "black" culture and I think O'Reilly was trying (in his usual clumsy way) to say that a lot of people (not him) think the rap/thug thing is actually representative of how black people behave -- he said "They think that the culture is dominated by Twista, Ludacris, and Snoop Dogg" and then explained that "There wasn't one person in Sylvia's who was screaming, "M-Fer, I want more iced tea" with the implication being that that's how Snoop (or Snoop fans) would act, I guess.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Agreed.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Perhaps...
Like any single statement, this could be a case of where something simply "sounds wrong" because, for whatever reason, what people hear does not match the speaker's intent. When I listen to the clip, it still sounds like the lack of vulgarity and craziness at Sylvia's was some sort of revelation to himself (as opposed to something that he expected but that would be a revelation to others). And that's supported by the fact that he definitely was surprised by some aspect of the sameness of Sylvia's, and also the fact that he didn't enumerate any other thing that could be taken as a difference. But if he had a different explanation, I could be convinced otherwise. Everybody deserves a shot to explain themselves.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Hmm, possibly a fair point.
But if we look at the most visible Black Icons likely to be associated with pop culture, the rappers, is it really such an unreasonable expectation that this might be what one would find in a Harlem Restaurant? That's all O'Reilly's statement was, an indication of what he thought he might find there. In that sense you may have a fair point, although I am not sure that I could call that prejudiced.
On the other hand, though, if Bill was such a seathing bigot based on having had this misconception wouldn't he be trying to protect that world view rather than openly expressing surprise and offering praise based on having his misconceptions set straight? Are bigots really that malleable? I suspect not.
Having a misconceived expectation is not the same thing as ingrained prejudice. Being willing to accept the reality over the misconception is the mark of an enlightened person as opposed to a bigot, is it not?
By expressing these views openly and thus working to dispell the very misconceptions that you attribute as being prejudice, is Bill not actively working against that prejudice? Would a bigot actively, openly, and publicly work against their own bigotry?
This latter seems proof enough that Bill isn't a racist.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Notice that I'm not calling O'Reilly a racist
I'm a firm believer that the "isms" should be reserved for patterns of behavior characterized by maliciousness, not single utterances made more or less as jokes. Anybody can say something that sounds bad once or twice. I'd have to examine O'Reilly's record before I would make such a loaded charge against him. I'm just pointing out that what he said certainly would leave O'Reailly open to a racism charge from people who are less forgiving than I am, which is probably a lot of people.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Well, do you think that the dkos author was calling him
racist?
If so, do you feel that my analysis of O'Reilly's actual statements and reactions to his experience counter that charge?
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Do you think that the
Yes.
In your diary? No, because you misrepresented what O'Reilly said by leaving out critical facts. You said that what O'Reilly said boiled down to this:
leaving out:
3. O'Reilly indicated points 1) and 2) were a surprise to him; and
4. O'Reilly's surprise was (possibly) related to the lack of vulgarity and craziness amongst the black patrons.
So, the fact that you left out the real meat of the diarist's racism charge leads me to conclude that while an effective counter to this charge of O'Reilly's racism does exist (see ATQB's guidelines, which I generally agree with), your analysis fell short because you failed to take on the substance of the diarist's claims-- Clearly, O'Reilly's statement went further than merely giving a good review of a Harlem restaurant, and furthermore, not even the most biased DailyKos diarist would be making such a claim of racism if O'Reilly merely had given a good review of a Harlem restaurant.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
No, in our entire discussion
and specifically where I addressed the points that you are raising (again).
So in addition to the diary itself I also mean the counter arguments to your objections here: Hmm, possibly a fair point.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
I think I am at least somewhat sympathetic to your POV
No, I don't think that O'Reilly is a "seething bigot." No, I don't think that anyone who makes generalizations in order to acknowledge the presence of cultural differences between blacks and whites in America should be called a racist. I don't think that people should be shunned because of one statement that comes out a little awkwardly. I do give people credit for at least trying to speak to race issues, because it is so easy to stay silent and not take the chance that you'll say something that will offend. I do think people ought to be given a chance to explain themselves when they say something that offends people.
I would say that it is at least somewhat unreasonable to expect patrons of a restaurant to spew vulgarities and exhibit craziness, unless one has previously been in restaurants and observed such behavior. The reasonable expectaion would be to expect restaurant patrons to behave like restaurant patrons, not like the personas of rap stars. But I would stop short of calling such an expectation "racist", because the word racist has such negative connotations associated with our history in this country. I don't think such expectations, even if they are based on race,and even if I believe the expectation to be somewhat unreasonable, make someone a bad person.
Well, I'm not prepared to call Bill O'Reilly "enlightened", because I cannot judge from this incident whether he has truly and sincerely confronted his own misconceptions and prejudices-- but yes, confronting one's own prejudices and biases is a mark of enlightenment, not bigotry.
While I'm not going to call O'Reilly a racist over this one incident, I also can't give him credit for any great enlightenment in this case. It is one incident and you can only judge the man by taking this in context his whole body of statements. I'm just not familiar enough with his record to make that kind of judgment. If he had, for instance, made similar statements over a period of years, then I would have to conclude that he was not sincere in confronting his biases.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Defining racism too broadly or too narrowly is a problem...
The problem of defining it too narrowly is obviously problematic....defining it too broadly is as well. You make that case above, and Malcom Gladwell shares that point with you to an extent.....
It seems to me that O'Reilly's comment is a case of the latter.
He first makes the the point that harboring prejudices can't be a criteria for racism.....
He attempts to lay out what he considers guidelines to define racism due to similar logic.
http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom/2006/12/defining_a_raci.html
Here are his proposed criteria.....
I think that these are good criteria.
It is hard to draw a clear line of demarcation, but these are certainly starting to tease out the main issues on either side of the line.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
I finally heard some
of that interview on Opie and Anthony (radio show) and it was just not very good... Maybe not racist but over the top stupid. "There was no craziness" part is... Come on.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
That's my only gripe with O'Reilly - Condescension
His "shock" that he walked into a black restaurant in Harlem and it was "normal" and he used an "all-white" Italian restaurant as a comparison.
Maybe it wasn't racist at all, but it was condescending as hell--comparing this (tourist heavy) black restaurant to the apparently well-behaved "all-white" restaurants he's probably used to. (Because as you know, there's never a scene caused in all-white restaurants.) Next thing you know he'll be shocked that black people didn't just order catfish and watermelon and eat barbecue chicken the whole time while he was there.
From the looks of it, he doesn't get up to Harlem (or any restaurant with a large black patronship) very much. Perhaps we should get him to Amy Ruth's, or Spoonbread Too, Ginger (where we're having a debate party tonight) or any of the myriad of black restaurants in Harlem where cursing your waiter to serve you will probably get you some Special Additions to your food or beverage.
As to GoRight's question of whether it is reasonable to expect such illicit behavior when entering a black restaurant, I'd invite you to come up to Harlem. I'd take you around to the none-tourist spots and you'd see that to see such behavior is very unreasonable. It's not like you see in those 90s gangsta-in-tha-hood movies. I promise.
Perhaps O'Reilly was truly shocked. It's unfortunately, but if he's learned anything great. It would hopefully contribute to the notion that everything is not as it seems in his already made up mind.
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yes
condescending and ignorant. Probably not genuinely racist but definitely a glass tower meets the real world moment.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Given Bill O'Reilly's overall history, however,
he really can't be trusted, imo.
Look, I understand the complaint here ...
but in the end wasn't his comment basically exactly the right one? Black people and black restaurants are just like everyone else. Isn't that basically what you said above?
I'm not surprised at all that the black community is "normal" like everyone else. I have a reasonable number of black acquaintences and some modest familiarity with their culture so this isn't surprising at all.
I suspect that his comment and the way he presented it was a function of 2 things:
1. He doesn't really have any substantive contact with that culture and so he had misconceptions (probably driven by media portrayals of black pop culture).
2. He is a naturally over-the-top type of person and so he states things in outrageous ways.
Neither of these makes him racist. The question is, what was his reaction to being confronted with the reality of his misconceptions? Did he deny reality or accept it on its face (and thus he learned something)? I argue that he accepted it and sought to highlight the correct view that this culture is just like any other in most respects.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree