Wednesday Open Thread

Quick Open Thread for you guys to have something to comment in! A bit busy this morning.

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Dole had to recall some lettuce due to an e-coli scare....

I'll be waiting for the moral outrage that we're importing lettuce from such far away places as California. 

http://thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070919/NEWS01/709190305/1002

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Your moral outrage

with moral outrage is showing.

I assume you aren't against finding the cause of the problem and of course fixing it.

Maybe it is not the importing, but the actually getting sick that's important.

Assuming you don't want to get mad cow disease from eating tainted imported beef, or have you dog die from eating tainted dog food.

It is the economy, stupid.

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    I assume you

 

 

I assume you aren't against finding the cause of the problem and of course fixing it.

Of course not, but what to do?  I'm concerned for all of us.  Should we stop importing produce from California until they can demonstrate they have safeguards in place?  Given the Canada found this out, do you think they should halt US food exports?

 

 

Maybe it is not the importing, but the actually getting sick that's important.

Maybe.  If it is, I'd suggest that those people who think it is look up the dangers of E-Coli.  Think of the children.

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Your sense of compassion

is underwhelming.

I assume you are more focused on the FEAR of trade barriors to free markets than the minor inconvenience of a sick person. I guess sick people are good for the health insurance market, eh? Sick people put money into the overall capital system.

At some point you have to be realistic. Tainted products don't make for good marketing.

Even better prevent the problem in the first place, then there will be no moral outrage. Though it might cost a few pennies more.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Underwhelming....

that hurts. 

 

At some point you have to be realistic. Tainted products don't make for good marketing.

Holy role reversal, Batman!

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Holy Cr*p QB

Maybe you should stop making assumptions about my positions.

You paint the wrong picture with that broadbrush of yours.

Holy Presumptiousness, Batwoman.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Holy frellin' irony

Maybe you should stop making assumptions about my positions.

Amazing from someone who just one note before started a paragraph with "I assume you...."

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Nice of you to drop in for the slaughter

Got anything other gems or cynical obvservations you'd care to slander us with?

It is the economy, stupid.

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Let's see...

The last time this happened, three people died. Ironically, growers called for MORE oversight and testing by the FDA, but the FDA (under this administration, of course) hasn't responded:

E. Coli Fears Spark Bagged Salad Recall

...

Last year, an E. coli outbreak traced to bagged baby spinach sold under the Dole brand was blamed for the deaths of three people and for sickening hundreds more across the U.S. Authorities eventually identified a central California cattle ranch next to spinach fields belonging to one of Dole's suppliers as being the source of the bacteria.

A recent Associated Press investigation found that government regulators never acted on calls for stepped-up inspections of leafy greens after that outbreak, and regulations governing farms in the fertile central California region known as the nation's "Salad Bowl" remain much as they were.

FDA still weighing steps to prevent produce contamination

Sep 18, 2007 (CIDRAP News) – A year after the United States' largest produce-related Escherichia coli outbreak, federal officials are still weighing their options for preventing produce contamination, and it's not clear if self-regulation measures quickly adopted by growers will prevent future outbreaks.

The outbreak in 2006, blamed on contaminated fresh spinach from California, caused 205 illness cases and three deaths. Before the outbreak, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) was already concerned about levels of E coli O157:H7 contamination in leafy greens, which had been rising in recent years.

...

No increase in inspections
A spokesman for the FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition (CFSAN) told CIDRAP News that work on the Lettuce Safety Initiative was slowed because many of the same investigators who were to explore conditions at growers and producers in the Salinas Valley were dispatched to work on the spinach probe. "They had to react and do extensive product tracebacks," he said.

...

Despite widespread concern over contaminated produce, federal officials have not increased their inspections of leafy greens, according to a Sep 12 Associated Press (AP) report. A review of data obtained through the Freedom of Information Act showed that the FDA inspects salad-green growers and processors only once every 3.9 years, the AP said.

California public health inspectors do not have the authority to spot-test processing plants that handle fresh greens, the story said.

...

Does voluntary system work?
In California this summer, legislators shelved three pieces of legislation that would have set standards for irrigation water, established a state inspection system for leafy greens, and reduced fecal contamination on farm fields.

Instead, the majority opted to allow the state of California and the produce industry to establish a voluntary marketing agreement that allows food products to carry an official seal if they come from producers and processors that have followed good food-safety procedures. The producers must agree to undergo safety audits by the California Department of Food and Agriculture (CDFA).

About 99% of the leafy greens industry in California has signed on to the marketing agreement, according to a Jul 19 press release from the CDFA.

However, it's not clear how effective the marketing agreement will be at preventing produce contamination.

Now, you may not care that people die from E. Coli, but the families of those who died due to a problem which should be spotted and stopped certainly mind.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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Evil FDA. Bad, evil FDA!

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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AP investigation on FDA inaction on E.Coli

A good read from September 12, before the latest E.Coli outbreak:

U.S. Failed to Boost Produce Inspections

SALINAS, Calif. (AP) — Government regulators never acted on calls for stepped-up inspections of leafy greens after last year's deadly E. coli spinach outbreak, leaving the safety of America's salads to a patchwork of largely unenforceable rules and the industry itself, an Associated Press investigation has found.

The regulations governing farms in this central California region known as the nation's "Salad Bowl" remain much as they were when bacteria from a cattle ranch infected spinach that killed three people and sickened more than 200.

AP's review of data obtained through the Freedom of Information Act found that federal officials inspect companies growing and processing salad greens an average of just once every 3.9 years. Some proposals in Congress would require such inspections at least four times a year.

...

Despite widespread calls for spot-testing of processing plants handling leafy greens following last year's E. coli outbreak, California public health inspectors have not been given the authority to conduct such tests, so none have been done, the AP review found.

"We have strict standards for lead paint on toys, but we don't seem to take the same level of seriousness about something that we consume every day," said Darryl Howard, whose 83-year-old mother, Betty Howard, of Richland, Wash., died as a result of E. coli-related complications.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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Evil FDA. Bad, evil FDA!

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Skymutt diary has become unusable.

It takes minutes to post anything and after posting a comment it renders as completely blank. I am not going to bother to respond any further to the inanities under these circumstances.

 

 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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I think it was just the site itself

lagged out for a few mins.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I suspect bad performance when number of comments

gets large.  Last night it was also only marginally useful.  I would submit a comment and the resulting page redirect would get a server error.  Hit refresh, same thing.  Hit refresh, same thing.  Hit refresh, same thing.  Hit refresh, page comes up.

The problem seemed to degrade as the number of comments grew.  I am currently using the latest version of Firefox. 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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I seem to remember something

about exponential degradation in performance when the number of comments gets huge. But 300+ small comments should not be that bad.

Maybe I should change it to automatically make a 2nd page if the number of comments crosses 150-200? We'll see.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Are you able to bring up the skymutt

diary OK?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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I still get a completely blank page.

When trying to load the indicated diary.  No server error this morning, just a completely blank page.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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My "My Comments" page is also blank now.

How do you clear the internet files cache in Firefox?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Go to Tools

From the pulldown menu click on Clear Private Data

qui tacet consentire

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Thanks.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Good.....

It matches the substance of your posts. :)

You could have just waited and said ALL LIES at the bottom of the list of Bush's sins against democracy.

I have a feeling the thread is overloaded with 369 comments.

Bush is such a many headed albatross, he has even ruined your ability to defending him!!

How to Dodge the Bush Albatross

The criticisms from Mr. Greenspan, at this point, were hardly surprising. But they did serve as yet another powerful reminder that the G.O.P. nominee who can best distinguish himself from this president may be the only one capable of succeeding him.

It is the economy, stupid.

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It matches the intended content of the diary better!

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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You are on a sinking ship

Why you bother to keep defending Bush is beyond me.

He will go down in history as the most selfish, petulant, cocky, President. LIke Ceasar he is bringing this country down, and all you do is make excuses. Worst of all he doesn't respect the constitution, therefore by proxy, the founding fathers.

Looks like it will come down to just you, and Barney as his sidekicks.

:)

It is the economy, stupid.

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Just countering the lies with the truth.

It's what I do.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Denial

It's called denail GR.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Actually, its called denial, MissL

It's called denail GR.

 and that's what I am dealing out to the liers.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Actually, it's called "liars", GR

and that's what I am dealing out to the liers.

Two can play the spell-correction game. ;-)

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

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Touche

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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I had to go to "threaded view-- collapsed" for that diary

And unfortunately, when you change the view, it changes for all diaries.

Bah-- if you'd just stayed out of it, we could have used all 300+ comments for Bush's manifold disasters.  We had just scratched the surface when you showed up :-) 

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It was all the same old, same old arguing.

But much faster because it was mostly one liners.

You may have set the record for number of comments, but I am personally responsible for close to 1/2 of all those comments since I was countering one for one with all the rest of you and your cohorts.

Hey, that should help my stats for this month, though! 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Yes, you kep up pretty good, I have to give you credit

Of course you resorted to the vague "Lies" charge on a number of occasions, and the "need to verify-- most likely a lie" one showed a bit of desperation, as did "Don't know what this is. Must be a lie?"... but a B+ effort on your part overall given the extreme difficulty of generating convincing excuses for the failed Bush Administration :-)

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Hey, the collapsed comment option works.

I may resume.

What's vague about lies?  Lies means the post it is attached to is a lie.

Pfft.  "Need to verify --- most likely lie".  One comment out of like 150 and you people are obsessing over that.  It shows I am being intellectually honest.

Double pfft. "Don't know what this is. Must be a lie?"  You left off the ":)" meaning that the "Must be a lie?"  (Note the question mark) was a joke.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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What's vague about

What's vague about lies?  Lies means the post it is attached to is a lie.

Meh. "Lie" is lazy and hard to respond to.  If you follow it up with your biased right-wing version of the truth, it's easier to respond.

"Need to verify --- most likely lie".  One comment out of like 150 and
you people are obsessing over that.  It shows I am being intellectually
honest.

It actually shows that you are being intellectually honest 1/150th of the time, which is actually not bad for a right winger.

"Don't know what this is. Must be a lie?"  You left off the ":)"
meaning that the "Must be a lie?"  (Note the question mark) was a joke.

My bad :-) I acknowledge that that post was a joke.  

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Meh.

Meh. "Lie" is lazy and hard to respond to.  If you follow it up with
your biased right-wing version of the truth, it's easier to respond.

 I usually provided some indicator of why.  When I didn't I presumed it was obvious.  Excuse me for not making it easy for you all when it is like 10 against 1.  My bad, I guess.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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You were in full "battle station" mode.

I can just picture you sitting at your keyboard in your Kevlar® helmet, fake Nightvision goggles and desert camo t-shirt doing battle -- you, the fighting keyboardist.

What a silly, inane person you are.

Making the world safe for democracy in your boxer shorts.

Loser.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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stop n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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How O'Reilly-esque of you.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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I thought you loved O'Reilly?

Does that mean you love me?

I KNEW you were another Republican closet case!

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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Just noting your similarities.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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So you DO adore me.

Remind me not to use a public restroom in your neck of the woods.

You with your wide stance and reaching under the stall wall.

You're as creepy as your brother, Larry.

GoRight Craig.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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Stop your unwanted sexual advances.

No means no!

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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madscientist's

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

How frightening.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Good diary-- endorsed by skymutt :-)

AIPAC is a lobby for a foreign country-- a good ally, but a foreign country nonetheless.  Criticisms like Moran's are not criticisms of Jewish people but of AIPAC itself, and such criticisms must be allowed without being silenced by charges of anti-Semitism so that America can have a meaningful debate as to our relationship with Israel and AIPAC's role in that relationship. 

Steny Hoyer is flat wrong in this case.

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Moran is an anti-semitic moron

He has a history of talking about Jewish control. He deserves all he is getting.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Examples?

I want to see what he's said and judge for myself.  I don't take these type of charges lightly, because careers and lives can be ruined by such charges.  And I'm just not seeing anything that I'd call anti-Semitism in these latest statements.

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I've seen it through the years but here

From Washington Post

Although hailed for forging ties with the region's Muslim community, Moran has gotten into trouble with the local Jewish community before. In 2001, he angered groups by saying in an appearance before the American Muslim Council that then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was coming to Washington "probably seeking a warrant from President Bush to kill at will with weapons we have paid for."

The next year, Moran returned $2,000 in political contributions from a Muslim activist with ties to the anti-Israeli groups Hamas and Hezbollah.

And in 2003, at an antiwar forum in Reston, Moran said: "If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this. The leaders of the Jewish community are influential enough that they could change the direction of where this is going, and I think they should."

Said Halber this week: "There are only so many mistakes he can make before it's fair to call him an anti-Semite."

Too quick to blame the Jews and Israel. There is no doubt in my mind that guy is a virulent anti-semite.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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You can support Israel and not support

all it's priorities & policies. Likewise you can agree with some AIPAC positions and still disagree with other aspects of it, even most aspects of it.

You have a hard time with that one Ender. You seem much more prone to the idea that any criticism means you are against. That's so close to the line we fought last week of "you must support the US troops mission in Iraq or you can'tr say you support the troops". People can utter such vacuous statements, but it doesn't make them any closer to truth.

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With friends like these

AIPAC is a lobby for a foreign country-- a good ally, but a foreign country nonetheless.

Israel's never been much of an ally. What have they ever given us back for the billions of dolars we give them each year, not to mention things like them attacking the USS LIberty?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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While I think that the World owed the Jewish people

a homeland, especially after what the civilized nations allowed the other civilized nations to do to their Jewish residents through the last several centuries (particularly after Hitler)....

I just wish they wouldn't have made the State of Israel a theocracy. On it's face it shorts out the other religions of the people who live there. And when you consider that Israel went out of it's way to exile and marginalize the non-jews who lived there, well it's a phaux democracy then.

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Yeah because segregation

usually works out so well. Historically the Jews have often gotten shafted, no doubt. The answer isn't to wall them off in their own little country, particularly when that country is blatantly stolen from another ethinc group that hasn't always gotten the best deal in life.

The answer to the holocaust should have been greater integration between jews and the societies they lived in. Part of the reason the jews were an easy target is precisely because they had been treated as outsiders for so long. Often forced to live in segregated parts of towns, denied access to certain stores, and so on. So how do we answer the problems of alienation brought on by keeping a people eternally at arms length? By pushing them further away and encouraging them to be xenophobic.

Fan-freaking-tastic. The result was predictable- the jews become subject to yet more racism and the state of Israel becomes distubingly racist itself.

The creation of the state of Israel ranks right up there with invading russian in the winter in terms of great blunders of the twentieth century.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Meh. Just Meh.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Ah, too quick on the Meh there

The point about integration and acceptance being a preferable goal is a good one.

I understand the big picture here and I'm not arguing against Israel's right to exist or the motivations behind the creation of Israel, but Tlaloc's point is valid. Integration, toleration, and acceptance of differences within a cohesive society is a better solution than eternal separation.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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he has no valid points

Jews paid for their integration with blood for 2,000 years. Screw integration. Kill those who try to kill you.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Change

has to begin somewhere.

Like I said, I get the big picture. And right now, I concede that it is not possible to envision or create what Tlaloc is describing.

But a hundred years from now, do we want the world to be like it is today or to be different? I think an integrated world is a good goal, despite how impossible it looks today. That is my point.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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what might be possible in the future is for future

discussions. Anyone who is claiming that it was possible instead of creating the State of Israel and even in the current time with all the bs going on, does not have the interests of the Jews in mind as it would cause immediate and direct harm to them to fall on the mercies of their enemies.

Some vacuous integration cannot possibly be on the agenda now, and it could not possibly have been on the agenda right after the obliteration of 6,000,000 jews. If Jews had the strength back then, they would've obliterated the state of Germany for the incredible crimes that have been committed against them, instead of being all polite and asking other nations to integrate them.

No, sometimes realitistically all you have is the point of your gun blowing your enemies away. In the future it might change, but presently all such suggestions for change are extremely unhelpful and actually proposed by those who wish Jews ill will.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I call BS

Anyone who is claiming that it was possible instead of creating the State of Israel and even in the current time with all the bs going on, does not have the interests of the Jews in mind as it would cause immediate and direct harm to them to fall on the mercies of their enemies.

That's pure unadulterated bullshit, Ender. In the aftermath of WW2 the jews had an enormous amount of sympathy from others. People were horrofied at what had happened.

If there was ever a moment when they could have approached almost any society on earth with open hands and been at least accepted if not welcomed it was then. but instead they ended up trying to take what they could and the sympathy evaporated to be replaced with yet more hatred.

There was a chance for a real reapproachment. But it was missed. And conditions were put in place (*cough*Israel*cough*) that make a future resolution impossible until those conditions are resolved.

Some vacuous integration cannot possibly be on the agenda now, and it could not possibly have been on the agenda right after the obliteration of 6,000,000 jews.

Then they're screwed and we should start cateloging their culture now for posterity. I'm not that pessimistic. I think they can learn from their mistakes, just as I think the muslims can learn from theirs.

In the future it might change, but presently all such suggestions for change are extremely unhelpful and actually proposed by those who wish Jews ill will.

I find that incredibly offensive. Don't slander me that way again, Ender.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Oooo. Better watch out, Ender.

Don't slander me that way again, Ender.

Or he's gonna type some mean words at you, or maybe whine incessantly or something! 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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How typically classless of you

trying to start a fight between your betters.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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ROFL. Luckily I know that Ender is more mature than that.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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This is only true as long as all sides agree.

It is obvious that the Palestinians do not agree by their very actions and refusal to accept anything less that complete elimination of Israel.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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lol

The answer to the holocaust should have been greater integration between jews and the societies they lived in.

Dude, are you really that ignorant of the history of the Jews? Do you actually think they did not try to "integrate" into different societies? Or do you propose forcing countries to integrate jews?

Your point of view actually ignores the actual wishes of Jews themselves. Jews decided that it should no longer be up to anyone else whether they have a homeland or not and took their rightful place themselves.

I don't think Jews have actually become subject to yet more racism, because you can't get any worse than the destruction of 75% of the entire people. No, the fact that they have their own country, fully capable of defending themselves is a million times better than having nothing and being a potential subject to genocide. How can you logically conclude that the jewish situation became worse...

Let's examine... Jewish World population before 1939 = 8.5mil approx. Jewish World population after 1945 = 2.5mil approx. Jewish Population now = 16mil approx. Jewish population in Israel now = 5.5mil approx. Ok... How did it get worse for jews? The racism against jews now is worse than it was during the genocide of the jews and before when they were slaughtered and kicked and discriminated against all over the world?

YOU ARE SPEAKING NONSENSE. Jews are a LOT better off now than they were before the existence of Israel. There is not a single rational shred of evidence to dispute that. What are you talking about?

Your idea of Jews as you so clearly expressed in the quote above is to be the serfs of the nations with no self-determination rights, and no ability to actually defend themselves, always depending on host countries.
Sorry but f**k that.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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You are leaping to the wrong conclusions, Ender

Dude, are you really that ignorant of the history of the Jews? Do you actually think they did not try to "integrate" into different societies? Or do you propose forcing countries to integrate jews?

I didn't say that the jews didn't try to integrate. SOmetimes they did and sometimes they didn't. Too often when they did try the society they wanted to integrate into rebuffed them.

Your point of view actually ignores the actual wishes of Jews themselves. Jews decided that it should no longer be up to anyone else whether they have a homeland or not and took their rightful place themselves.

You're right in that I have absolutely no regard for that minority of jews who were all to willing to inflict on the palestinians the same evils they had been subject to.

"Rightful" place. Bullshit, Ender.

I don't think Jews have actually become subject to yet more racism, because you can't get any worse than the destruction of 75% of the entire people.

Then you aren't paying attention. Antisemitism has become very much more widespread. The holocaust was the result of a single powerful nation. It represented a deep rather than widespread antisemitism. The rest of the world was mostly ambivilent, that was a shallow and widespread antisemitism. Today we are detting to the point of having the worst of both. Jews are widely and viscerally hated throughout the middle east due to the actions of Israel. In western countries neo-nazism is amazingly popular. Propaganda like the protocols of zion is reaching more and more people.

For god's sake a sizable population believes that Iran, should it develop a nuclear weapon, would nuke Tel Aviv if not all of Israel.

YOU ARE SPEAKING NONSENSE. Jews are a LOT better off now than they were before the existence of Israel. There is not a single rational shred of evidence to dispute that. What are you talking about?

You don't see what you don't want to see. As it stands now a huge enmity is growing between jews and muslims. That did not exist during WW2. You are kidding yourself if you don't think the issue of racism is worse now than then. You're right that jews are not being murdered at rates anywhere near the final solution, what you seem not to get is that pretty much any time they could be.

By your own figures an attack that destroyed Israel would kill almost as many jews as died in the final solution.

Do you deny that there are sizable and numerous parties that are willing to do exactly that?

Your idea of Jews as you so clearly expressed in the quote above is to be the serfs of the nations with no self-determination rights, and no ability to actually defend themselves, always depending on host countries.
Sorry but f**k that.

Ender you aren't an idiot so stop acting like one.

Are chinese-americans serfs just because they integrate? Are black americans serfs? Are you? You came here from russia, learned the language,joined the culture and assimilated into the society. It didn;t make you a serf, nor did require you to renounce your heritage. It merely meant you joined the people you were living among. Had you segregated yourself into New york's little moscow , or had society forced you to live only among your former country men, then that would be a problem. It would have isolated you from the overall population making you an easier target for fear and suspicion. A convenient scapegoat.

This happened in america in the past as we did exactly that- forced various ethnicities to live in sequestered areas. That's why there are little moscow's and chinatowns in all the big cities. Fortunately that tendency to segregate is greatly diminished in the US.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Muddled

You're right in that I have absolutely no regard for that minority of jews who were all to willing to inflict on the palestinians the same evils they had been subject to.

Utter rot.

The holocaust was the result of a single powerful nation. It represented a deep rather than widespread antisemitism. The rest of the world was mostly ambivilent, that was a shallow and widespread antisemitism.

You're ignoring an awful lot of history here. Inquisition? Pogroms?

As it stands now a huge enmity is growing between jews and muslims. That did not exist during WW2.

The actions of people like "our hero Hajj Amin al-Husseini" during WWII certainly didn't help.

By your own figures an attack that destroyed Israel would kill almost as many jews as died in the final solution.

There have been several attempts already to destroy Israel, and there probably will be more. Until Israel's right to exist is universally acknowledged Israel would be wise to stay armed.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Add some arguments

I don't take "utter rot" to be very compelling.

You're ignoring an awful lot of history here. Inquisition? Pogroms?

I'm not ignoring them but they really don't have much to do with the matter. The issue is modern racism against the jews. The actions of 15th and 16th century spain just aren't germaine.

Hajj Amin al-Husseini

Are you going to argue that anti-semitism in the middle east pre-ww2 was anywhere near what it is now?

There have been several attempts already to destroy Israel, and there probably will be more. Until Israel's right to exist is universally acknowledged Israel would be wise to stay armed.

That day will never come. The question is whether we continue to arm a nation that has been extremely beligerent towards its neighbors. My feeling is that when a country is an aggressor they forfeit rights to US military aid. Period.

The state of Israel will be dismantled sooner or later, it has made itself too many implacable enemies. The only question is if it is done in a way that prevents a massacre or not. I prefer to avoid another massacre, personally.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Nothing to argue

Your fact-free implication that the Palestinians endured anything close to the Holocaust wasn't intended to invite discussion.

I'm not ignoring them but they really don't have much to do with the matter. The issue is modern racism against the jews.

There has ALWAYS been racism against the Jews, that's the entire point.

That day will never come.

Why not? They were formed under UN charter in compliance with international law. Eventually the Arabic countries will acknowledge the obvious and normalize relations with Israel; some already have, to mutual benefit. Odd that you'd suggest otherwise, really.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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You too, huh?

Why is it on the topic of israel intelligent people act so reactionary?

Your fact-free implication that the Palestinians endured anything close to the Holocaust wasn't intended to invite discussion.

Did I say any such thing? No. I made a general statement that some minority of jews were all too eager to treat the palestians badly, in much the same way that the jews themselves have been treated badly. I was not talking about the holocaust, I was talking about the more generic persecution and disregard.

There has ALWAYS been racism against the Jews, that's the entire point.

That point was already acknowledged and has no bearing on the current mess, unless you want to argue that there always will be reacism against them. That point I disagree with strenuously.

Why not? They were formed under UN charter in compliance with international law. Eventually the Arabic countries will acknowledge the obvious and normalize relations with Israel; some already have, to mutual benefit. Odd that you'd suggest otherwise, really.

And now Israel is by far the worst offender in violating UN rules. They are in violation of more UN resolutions than pretty much the rest of the world combined. Obviously they can no longer claim the UN for legitimacy.

You really think that the Middle East that things are trending towards reapproachment? The only major Muslim nation to recognize Israel is egypt and in case you haven't been paying attention the egyptian government isn't terribly stable right now. A couple years back the government was attacking voters with machetes. The main competition for the current government seems to be the Muslim Brotherhood. Two guesses how they feel about Israel.

Israel just had another war with Lebanon. Meanwhile Iran (not exactly Israel's best friend) is getting much stronger and Iraq is trying to model itself on Iran.

What do you see happening in the middle east that suggests there will be a new position regarding Israel?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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LOL

This happened in america in the past as we did exactly that- forced
various ethnicities to live in sequestered areas. That's why there are
little moscow's and chinatowns in all the big cities. Fortunately that
tendency to segregate is greatly diminished in the US.

This is total crap.  Nobody forced anybody to live in sequestered areas.  These groups formed these areas on their own simply because they prefered to live near people with similar values and customs.

Where do you come up with this revisionist BS? 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Your historical illiteracy is striking

Nobody forced anybody to live in sequestered areas.

One example of how ignorant you are:

In 1882, the first Chinese Exclusion Act was passed, suspending most immigration for ten years. It was the first time in U.S. history that restricted a certain class of immigrants from entering the country. The Act forced the Chinese who were not working and living on farms and ranches, to isolate themselves in Chinatown, where they became involved in occupations geared toward serving their own ethnic community. This helped them avoid competition with whites. At the same time, it was difficult for Chinese to live outside Chinatown unless they lived inside laundries or as live-in servants.

a quick history lesson for you.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Intersting. I stand corrected by 1/2.

I honestly was unaware of this. Even so, as is indicated above "Chinatown" was already well established before the restriction was put in place. Thus the restriction was NOT the cause of the formation of the area known as Chinatown. The area was formed in exactly the manner I described: immigrants with similar backgrounds choosing to live together.

Also, this is but one example in one city. It is hardly respresentative of all such neighborhoods in all such cities as your original comment implied, or at least seemed to.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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